What is "life"? What is "personhood"? What is "choice"?

[uppityperson]

Define your terms please. If you want to discuss being pro-choice, or pro-life, seems it is good to define these terms first.

[PeaceNikki]

1. Life is

the condition that distinguishes organisms from inorganic objects and dead organisms, being manifested by growth through metabolism, reproduction, etc.

Personhood based on viability. A fetus is not innocent, as anti-choice people claim. Although an unwanted fetus has no ill intent, it is exploiting the woman's body and endangering her life and health against her will. Bringing a pregnancy to term is far riskier than having an abortion, and any pregnancy has a profound effect on a woman's whole being, mentally and physically. Therefore, a woman has the right to defend her life and health with an abortion. A woman with a born child is under no legal obligation to donate a kidney or blood to save her child's life, so how can a fetus have even more rights over the woman’s body than her born child? It can’t. Even if a fetus has a right to life, a pregnant woman cannot be required to save it by loaning out her body for nine months against her will. Once a woman is pregnant, she must give her consent for the pregnancy to continue.

In response, anti-choice people say that because the woman chose to have sex, she must accept the risk of pregnancy. But sex is not a contract for pregnancy. People have a constitutional right to non-procreative sex because of legalized birth control, which implicitly provides the right to have sex without reproducing. Regardless, consent to sex does not entail consent to pregnancy, any more than consent to swimming implies consent to drown.

One of the best tests of personhood is viability, upon which the 1973 Supreme Court decision Roe vs. Wade was based. Viability is defined as the ability to live outside the womb. It is based upon the broader logic that "a person is as a person does." In other words, people normally breathe on their own, circulate blood on their own, fight off most germs on their own and sustain normal cellular activity on their own. A fetus is able to achieve these functions once it reaches a weight of about 5 pounds. This usually occurs between the 7th and 8th month of pregnancy -- coincidentally, about the time that the baby has finished its brain and central nervous system.

Choice is trusting women to exercise their sensible moral judgment; and trusting doctors to exercise their professional medical judgment.

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[PeaceNikki]

22. Um... no. Griswold v. Connecticut and Eisenstadt v. Baird

The use of birth control falls under a constitutional right to privacy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griswold_v._Connecticut
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eisenstadt_v._Baird

[mike_c]

2. I'm only qualified to suggest an answer for the first question, "what is life?"

Believe me, as a biologist, that is something I think about a LOT. There are lots of supposed "definitions" of life, but most really don't meet the standard of being comprehensive, i.e. applicable to all living organisms, and exclusive, or NOT true of non-living organisms. Most attempts to define "life" do so by listing a set of attributes generally true of living things-- they're capable of reproduction and self assembly using information passed from one generation to the next as nucleotide sequences in DNA molecules, movement, etc. The sorts of attributes that populate the first chapter of most college biology texts.

Like I say though, after you think about those attributes for a while they become unsatisfying. There are just too many exceptions to the rules, and we have no idea how far they can be generalized. When I discuss them with my biology students, I tell them that I'm uncomfortable with their ability to accurately define "life." Would an Earth trained biologist necessarily recognize any living organism anywhere in the universe using those attributes, for example?

At the risk of falling into some of the same traps, I'd start by noting that life is invariably complex. Really complex, especially when compared to inorganic systems. Complexity seems to be a hallmark of all the life forms we're aware of. Most biological entities are far more complex than non-biological entities-- macromolecules, for example, the basic building blocks of biological life, require substantial investment of energy and PURPOSE to organize and maintain against entropy.

Living organisms store information about how they organized themselves (DNA is only one aspect of information storage in living systems-- there are others). Information density seems to be another attribute of life that biology textbooks rarely talk about.

One view that I keep coming back to is that life is no more than information dense, self assembling material complexity that ties processes at multiple hierarchies of scale into a single operating entity, probably as an emergent property of matter itself. This is overly general, but we need a general definition that can be applied to extraterrestrial life, because there IS an easy out for defining life on Earth. We also need it for generating hypotheses that we can think about when we're lying awake in the middle of the night....

The easy out is an OPERATIONAL definition, if not a comprehensive one. First, all living organisms in existence on Earth today can be traced through common descent to one or more "last common ancestors," so an easy operational definition is that living organisms are those that share a common lineage from those ancestors. It's convenient that from a biological perspective, life need only have "begun" once, at least on Earth, some 3.5 billion years ago. Shared common descent from that initial starting point is a convenient, workable definition of life on Earth.

[Lint Head]

3. Question: Aren't we just a fungus spreading across a planet and will eventuall destroy it?

[mike_c]

4. strictly speaking, no-- we're multicellular opisthokont eukaryotes spreading across the planet...

...and choking the life out of it. Fungi are in a different clade. :rofl:

Come to think of it, they'll undoubtedly benefit from all the rot we leave behind!

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[niyad]

5. . . . .

[uppityperson]

6. kicking since we've had some new people come post and I'd like to hear their thoughts on this

[Name removed]

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[uppityperson]

9. To clarify, are you saying "life" is "the threshold of viability"? Thank you. And...

What is "personhood"? What is "choice"?

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[uppityperson]

13. Yet you claim a 3 or 4 day old infant a "person". Another clarification please.

In the choice debate, "but it is a person" is used by the anti-choicers, the ones who want every abortion to be stopped since that is killing a person. What do you say to them? What you wrote here seems to contradict what you said elsewhere that a 3-4 day old is a person. "So the death of a legally living person should go without notice?"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=217&topic_id=8838&mesg_id=8845

To clarify this post, are you saying an infant is not a "person" until they are self-aware?

[Name removed]

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[uppityperson]

16. I am confused.

You wrote " Personhood applies self-awareness, and get this, even born babies aren't self aware!"
You also wrote "So the death of a legally living person should go without notice?" about a 3-4 day old.
You also write "Life is a valid concept, personhood is not."


I am confused about your definition of person as these 3 statements are contradictory. Or do you mean as far as abortions go?

I agree that an embryo is not a person as far as Choice issue goes.

[Name removed]

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[uppityperson]

19. Thank you for the explanation. I try to clarify rather than assuming, thank you. Another

question for you now. Or 2.
"So you are left with "does the fetus at a given stage qualify as an independent life?" and "do we have the right (natural right) to kill that life?"

You thoughts on these questions you pose? Thanks.

[Name removed]

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[uppityperson]

21. There are people all over the board here on this subject

Many of us feel as you do since this is how, legally, things stand. But most of us here have the HUGE caveat that the existing functioning person out in the world, HER health takes precedence over the potential.

I do hope you are not one of those who believe, wrongly, that a woman can waltz (or simply walk) into a clinic and get an abortion the day before she would give birth. Late term abortions are not done lightly and have good reasons. Rather like gallbladder operations.

[Name removed]

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[PeaceNikki]

24. There's no such thing as "purely elective late term abortions".

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[PeaceNikki]

26. You are wrong.

88.2% of abortions were conducted at or prior to 12 weeks, 10.4% from 13 to 20 weeks, and 1.4% at or after 21 weeks.

Those after 21 weeks are NOT elective.

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[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

62. You want a law FORCING people to say something and FORCING other people to listen.

How the fucking hell can anybody defend such a thing?

[Name removed]

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[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

66. Children.

Now you're saying pregnant women (and DOCTORS!) are like children.

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[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

72. Some anarchist.

I'm through with you. When DU comes back from the high-traffic limitations, take a look at my sig line, pigeon.

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[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

76. See sig line in the post below, pigeon.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

75. Why wait? Here's my sig line. It applies to things other than creationists, too.

"Debating creationists on the topic of evolution is rather like trying to play chess with a pigeon — it knocks the pieces over, craps on the board, and flies back to its flock to claim victory."

[Name removed]

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[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

84. So, pigeon, you think pregnant women should get medicine degrees too.

And an engineer should be forced to teach electronics to everybody who buys the gizmos they design. And the buyers are forced to listen. :eyes:

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[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

78. Wow. Your life must be complete now, pigeon.

Whereas we will be condemned to a life of arid despair because we had messages deleted. :eyes:

Pathetic.

[Name removed]

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[PeaceNikki]

30. Logic is that all abortion restrictions should be repealed.

The end.

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[PeaceNikki]

32. You thing women and doctors are that evil? (special message for CPD inside)

Never mind, you do.

Oh fuck off. Just fuck off and die in a fire you disrupting mother-fucking troll. I am done with you and will only respond to you with Green Day lyrics.

[Name removed]

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[PeaceNikki]

34. And you think we should legislate all matters based on extremes? Or just abortion?

That was rhetorical. I know your answer.

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[Lars39]

35. If you were really pro-logic and pro-science, you would understand

and advocate that every pregnancy and the woman's own situation is unique. It is *all* shades of gray, a gray that cannot be legislated in black and white terms.

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[Lars39]

39. Such thoughts reveal your black and white thinking on the subject.

You're really not big on variables are you?

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[Lars39]

41. Everyone's personal situation is different.

Every woman's pregnancy is different. Sorry that you're living in your world where you can't understand that.

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[Lars39]

43. And all women are cookie cut. Right.

You are willfully ignorant of the subject, which is why you won't ever understand and will be content to just shit-stir for attention.

[PeaceNikki]

44. Yes, shit-stirrer, he is.

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[Lars39]

48. Don't know about her parents, but mine never suffered fool gladly.

They wouldn't have had a problem with calling you quite a number of names. :)

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[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

61. It's not ad hominem when the description is accurate and based on verifiable evidence.

Namely, your posts.

If you don't want to be insulted, don't be a dick. Of course, for you, it's too late for that.

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[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

69. Your post have zero merit. No, wait, they have negative merit.

I know your type. You're looking at this gigantic subthread and laughing to yourself, "Huh huh. Huh huh. I'm sure pissin' off them librul baby killas. Huh huh. Go Walker! Down with union thugs! Huh huh."

Well, I have news for you. All this is us having fun at you, pointing at the stupid clown and laughing. Seeing the likes of you droning their bullshit on and on makes our convictions MORE solid, not less.

You are a failure.

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[Lars39]

77. There's that ego talkin!

You must think you're special or unique.:)

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

81. Oh, he's God's gift to humanity. In pigeon form.

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[EstimatedProphet]

85. You did get one thing right

You're not unique.

[Lars39]

47. Before this forum,

most of his posts were in the gungeon. They didn't particularly like him there, either. :)

[PeaceNikki]

50. He pissed Wisconsin off, too.

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[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

56. You just ignored the possibility that a person who voted for Walker could ever vote for the recall.

You call THAT logic?

I'd whip up the Inigo Montoya image again, but I'm lazy. You know the drill.

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[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

64. Are you seriously arguing there are no cases of Walker voters declaring opposition to him?

I'm not from WI, but PeaceNikki was heavily involved in that process and will probably be able to provide facts easier. I'm not going on a wild goose chase for your benefit. That's a ridiculously outlandish allegation.

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[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

57. It's never one subject only, is it? -nt

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[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

58. Jesus H. Christ, how pathetic one can get?

[EstimatedProphet]

90. Ah! Now I understand! You're Donald Trump!

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[Lars39]

49. It's not ego, but facts. No one has the exact same circumstances.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

54. What kind of idiot deduces "I think I'm special" from "I think no two people are alike"?

(Don't bother answering, that was rhetorical.)

[Lars39]

71. If you look at his website....

you'll find that he's a nihilist. Now isn't that "special"? :D

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[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

83. Including a non-voter. Why don't you vote, pigeon?

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[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

59. Do you think computer mice should not have a scroll wheel?

See, I can do disjointed non sequiturs too.

[uppityperson]

11. To clarify, are you saying "life" is "the threshold of viability"?

[Name removed]

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[uppityperson]

14. Thank you for your reply. Too often these terms are thrown around with different meanings for

different people. People who assume others have the same meaning. It is good to clarify what is meant since it can vary so widely.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

86. Troll is gone.

Yipe-kee-yay, motherfucker.

[Lars39]

87. Good news!

[musette_sf]

88. + 1

good, he was a tiresome bore

[uppityperson]

89. Thank you, Lars and whoever else got rid of it.

appreciate your work.

[ehrnst]

91. Life is a continuum.Personhood is independent existence from another's body. Choice is

the ability to have the option of saying yes or no to childbearing, independent of saying yes or no to sex with a man - which by extension, gives you the option to say yes or no to many, many other paths in life.

[uppityperson]

92. kicking to boost it up since we have some new visitors to this forum