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gulfcoastliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 01:03 PM
Original message
Cannabis arrests fall by a third (UK)
Arrests for possession of cannabis fell by a third in the first year since it was downgraded to a Class C drug, official Home Office figures show.

An estimated 199,000 police hours were saved, according to data from 26 of the 42 English and Welsh police forces.

Cannabis was reclassified so that officers could target hard drugs.

Minister Caroline Flint said new crime survey figures also showed that fears for a rise in cannabis use among young people were "wholly unfounded."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4216283.stm

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EnfantTerrible Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 11:01 AM
Response to Original message
1. That type of reasonable approach to
pot would never fly here because it makes sense and actually works. If the US adopted such a policy it would run the risk of progression and the abolition of puritanical ignorance in the eyes of the world.
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e75 Donating Member (51 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. First take care of head
actually it is progressing in CA and a lot of other states now. Finally. I'm worried it will start to go backwards though
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Wizard777 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Bruised pride is the biggest obsticle.
Edited on Fri Apr-22-05 02:19 PM by Wizard777
The Conservative Republicans that started this Trotsky Revolution and paramilitary war won't allow it. They are incapable of admitting their mistakes. They would rather allow the mistake to continue to exist until it has destroyed everything and everyone. That way there will be no one in existance to say they were wrong. Ah that foolish pride will get you everytime. So how do you ask someone to be the last to die for the latest Conservative Republican mistake?
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WhatHappenedToTheGOP Donating Member (16 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-05 11:35 AM
Response to Original message
4. Keep the Faith
Actually I find that more conservatives are starting to see the waste of tax payers dollars arresting and incarcerating marijuana possessors. If this trend continues, decriminalization will eventually come.

Legalization on the other hand is another story altogether.
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Tafiti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-07-05 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. No way.
It's way too much of a political liability for ANY Republican. Moderates, perhaps, but not your run-of-the-mill conservatives. Of course, most of them probably personally think decriminalization would in fact be beneficial, but they have to answer to the Christian Fascists. To them, a drug is a drug is a drug. They are equally bad and evil and destructive, just like sin. To compromise or actually support anything other than an insane zero-tolerance drug policy is political suicide. I don't see that ever changing in this country.
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Asgaya Dihi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-07-05 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. You might rethink that
If people didn't spend so much time telling the other side what they stood for and spent a bit more time asking them, you'd have a lot easier a time solving these problems. I'll offer you a few personal details about me here, something to consider maybe.

Most of my life I considered myself a moderate conservative, and I had pretty damned good reasons for it I think. When I was little my father beat the crap out of me, eventually it got bad enough that my mother divorced him. She couldn't afford a good neighborhood alone though and this was in the DC area back in the early 70's when it was the murder capitol of the world.

A gang problem developed at school, no big deal at first because it didn't occur to me that I had a choice, so I just went to school and defended myself best I could. One day though they asked me to join them, said they liked the guts. Now I had a choice, and at just ten years old I didn't like it. I could either join them and do to others what they'd been doing to me, or I could refuse and offend them, just make things worse. At 10 neither was acceptable, so I just stopped going to school. It was the only choice that did seem to make sense at the time.

For that the social workers of the State of Maryland decided to declare me uncontrollable, I spent the next 4 and a half years locked up with the very people I'd been trying to avoid getting tied up with. I learned what it was like to spend over 30 days at a time in a isolation cell when they shipped me off to Deveraux in Texas, learned what it was like to be alone in the world at 10 and have nobody consider you anything but another problem in a job they hate to start with. The conservatives didn't do that to me, the social workers did.

By 14 and a half they had turned me mean, I came out a criminal and spent the next few years doing things I'm not a bit proud of. But I knew who to blame, and you guys are still putting people like that in prison, and for as little reason. So is the other side, eventually I found things to hate about them too. Now I have no faith in either. If it wasn't for meeting my wife at 17 years old I'd probably be dead or in prison now, but she offered me hope again. Those tough on crime commercials play well and are hard to stand up against, but maybe you should anyway. At least RESEARCH the system and see what you've been doing.

You think you know who the other side is and what they stand for? You don't. Spend a little more time asking them. Some have their reasons and think they are doing the right thing. When I try to convince conservatives of what's going on in other debate boards I do just fine, once I get the partisans to stop offending them and let me explain things. Unintended consequences are real too.
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sweetheart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-07-05 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Yes, discussing facts is best
I remember "drugs" from pre-involvement and post involvement. When i
was a kid, i got all the drugs education, and it was a lot of information
about something i knew absolutely nothing about.

Then in high school, lots of kids became stoners, some more frequent
than others, but something i judged harshly as i was taught by the
puritain upbringing.

Then finally, i had my own first experiences with weed, and discovered
that it was not what i had been taught. This made me very curious as
i realized that all the drugs education was a load of crap, so i went
about trying and experimenting with every drug i could lay my hands on.
My common sense said to avoid PCP, meth, crack and smack... why bother
with drugs that seemed to have no upside, by the persons i met taking
them.

I found that LSD and mushrooms were profound drugs and they turned me
on to eastern religion and meditation that affected my life profoundly.
But along the path, i've seen lotsa folks have abuse problems, and the
drug is always, ALWAYS, the side effect of the problem, not the cause.
People are abused, hated, in debt, in tremendous pain and suffering
and drugs can be a way to cover pain, as much as watching too much
TV, a million one night stands or any other addictive behaviour, all
about denial of suffering.

I realized in those travels, that to ever end drugs abuse, we would
have to take away the shame of the suffering and the side effects of
it as well... and to remove that, we would need to ahve people able
to openly discuss their drugs usage, to realize that its nothing
special any more than stuffing ones face gaining 400 pounds is.
That as long as there is a stigma to taking drugs, the person will
not get help... so i realized long ago, that the best way to really
heal the drugs problem is to shift over to a harm-reduction strategy.

This is to make the drugs user not a criminal, but a patient, one who
may need help or treatment, or may not, as much as anyone who's ever
dealt with a beaten animal knows... the only way is through love,
and no amount of authority will ever get a beaten animal to trust
again except patient goodwill.

I admire you and your warrior spirit, Asgaya Dihi. You are wise
for that. It is not the drugs that are the threat, but the prison
complex that thinks institutionally that by putting humans in cages
and torturing them through confinement with the lesser souls amongst
us, that wisdom is transmitted on re-entering civil society... and
rather all it does is tighten the knot.
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Asgaya Dihi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-07-05 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Thanks
Thank you, sweetheart, that's kind of you O8)

I might check into this forum now and then, but I think I'm in the wrong place to do a lot of good here. I've been trying to work on the people in the main politics forum and such but I'm spending as much time trying to convince them it's not partisan attacks as trying to explain that some democratic policies and votes have contributed to the problem, it's not just the other side going for these mandatory minimums and such.

This is your crowd everyone, you need to go to work right here and educate them on the current prison system and who's going into it and why. What I've found to work best with conservatives is to just do everything I can to avoid offense or a fight, if you're calm and tossing science and verifiable statistics at them it's hard for them to keep a head of steam up and argue rather than debate the facts. Then we've got them, the facts and science are on our side, so is the history once you've read how we got where we are.

If something else works for you, go for it, but that works for me. Morals and such are easy to argue, but not as effective as it simply doesn't work and they are wasting your money.

I made a post with a few links in another thread, one I should have included is this one. Spend some time there, and in the others. If there's any sort of research link that I missed or that may be useful to you guys let me know, I've got lots of them bookmarked already so may already have it.

Homepage of truth: the Anti-drugwar by Brian C. Bennett
http://www.briancbennett.com/
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sweetheart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-07-05 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. I just discovered this "group" myself
In the years i've been on DU, i lurk in GD (General Discussion,
and Late Breaking News (LBN))... with some work in the UK forum. I
am frankly disappointed to see drugs issues hidden down here in this
pidgeon hole, as it is the more general public that needs to get the
message... as in this group, the preaching is to the choir.

If you discuss these topics in GD, i'll do my best to contribute, but
it seems rather that most of the DU are rather anti-the-drugs-war and
you'll have to find another website to find real antagonism on the
subject.

My own view is that the drugs war is a lost cause inside the US borders
and the best bet we've got is that canada, the UK and other intelligent
nations will grow up and break ranks, making it much much harder for the
nazi's to keep selling the same line.

It is why i never liked clinton, that he supported the drugs war, as it
was a sign that the democrats were a filth party along with the repukes,
but now, given the horror of the puke, the dems are a lesser evil... and
to think a lesser evil now inspires me... no really, but defeating a
greater evil does. Were they to allow "not" votes, i would simply
register as a "not republican", to cancel out a vote of some asshole
or other from the nazi party. As for being pro democrat, i asked
recently in a poll on the forum, and 2/3rds of respondents are not
in agreement with the democratic party platform (DU), meaning that
most persons here are disenfranchised like you and me.

Godspeed to you.

namaste,
-s

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Asgaya Dihi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-07-05 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. A last thought
an argument that never offered the chance for me to present here so far might be useful to you guys as well, I made this post more than a year ago on another board but you might find the history interesting, even if you don't agree at first. I've had good luck with it though, one of the biggest war games on the net has a set of boards one of which is debate and I've argued this out with them there. When I started most thought I was nuts, now most shout down anyone that even suggests prohibition :) As nuts as it may sound at first, look into it. Just because we've been on another road that doesn't mean we belong there. Here's the argument I started with there.

Legalization is the only answer, not only for pot but for all drugs. But, legal doesn't mean over the counter for everything, some such as PCP we do need to think hard about how we want to deal with them and restrict use to the medical community as much as possible. What we're now doing doesn't work though, not on any level.

An interesting detail that many aren't aware of is that for most of the history of mankind drugs were legal, and for much of the history of the U.S. drugs were legal. This whole prohibition idea is a fairly new one on the national or world concern level, though it had been tried at a smaller scale in the past and normally failed. Up till 1906 opiates, pot and its extracts such as hash, heroin, and most other substances were often included as up to 50% of the "tonic" that we gave to our children or grandmother for a tooth or back ache, some properly labeled and many not.

Back in 1906 the U.S. passed the single most effective bit of anti drug abuse legislation that we or to my knowledge anyone else has ever passed. The Pure Food and Drug Act specified that a product was "misbranded," "if the package fails to bear a statement of the quantity or proportion of any alcohol, morphine, opium, cocaine, heroin, alpha or beta eucaine, chloroform, cannabis, chloral hydrate, or acetanilide."

With the passage of that act opiate use dropped from an estimated 3-5% in the nation to roughly 1% on no stronger urging than people being told what they were taking. If we'd stuck to that approach we might be fine today, most people aren't stupid. Use today including legal prescribed use is probably as high or higher than it was at the time, we've gained nothing for 70 years of death and ruined lives.

In fact we've lost, a lot. Cops used to enforce the type of laws where people would pay them to hang around, now they enforce the type of laws where people would pay them to go away. It's forced an attitude shift, rather than protect the public from predators they had to become predators themselves and hunt for "criminals" that nobody was reporting and who was hurting nobody, and where often there's easy money or property to be had that few would report missing. We've lost the trust and respect between cops and the public as well as between the Government and the public.

Protecting the kids? Not even close. Drugs are easier to get than alcohol is, it always has been. Once a dealer takes the step to deal he doesn't care what the age of his client is, he's already risking prison. In a regulated establishment they have every reason to card people for the same reasons they do with alcohol. We've not only put them at serious risk of easy access to drugs, we then had the brilliant idea of ruining our credibility in the process and haven't stopped yet. Most overdose deaths are due to contaminated substances, allergic reactions to the agent used to cut the product, or to unknown potency levels. All prohibition related, not drug related. If properly labeled with clean needles the costs of addiction would fall dramatically. Most crime the same, it isn't because they are stoned, it's because in Government created black market they are forced to fight for territory with guns instead of with commercials or lawsuits.

Madness, murder, insanity was the first litany of lies about pot. That was followed a short time later with the claims that it was more addictive than heroin and the contradictory to the first claim idea that it now turned the kids into pacifists and was a tool of the communists. Then we tried a string of other lies and junk science including suffocating several monkeys and pretending it was pot related and we have a professional drug liar (some call him czar) out there whose job seems to be to make it up as he goes and see what he can get into print.

Back in 1906 we didn't have a drug problem that we couldn't have a huge effect on with a little simple education, people trusted their Government then. Today, we have a big problem, and we created it ourselves. The kids know we lied about some things so they don't trust us on anything else either and find out for themselves, they get stoned to our old reefer madness movies and laugh at the lies. Then they wonder what else we lied about, so experiment. We turned drug abuse from a health problem into a status symbol and integral part of the counter culture, and we've nobody to blame for that but ourselves. If we'd instead offer them accurate science based info so we weren't on separate sides we could then attack drugs the same way we did racism, work toward an attitude shift that teaches responsibility and makes abuse about as sexy as a case of hemorrhoids or VD would be. Just another nasty health problem rather than a part of youth rebellion.

More of the same isn't the way out. The truth and rational discussion of health care and educational rather than criminal alternatives is.

And BTW, what has been the result of all of this other than the near destruction of our own freedoms and society? We've managed to support and finance terrorists and organized crime from one side of the world to the other for decades, and we know it. If we want to destroy terrorism and organized crime it's pretty damned simple, remove their funding. Let our farmers grow what the terrorists now grow, let our pharmacies or liquor stores distribute instead of the street dealer. They are plant extracts that ancient people have used for centuries or longer, there's no reason for them to cost much more than a bottle of Rose Hips or Ginseng. Cut the throats of organized crime and terrorism, when the price falls and there are legit sources they no longer have a market that's worth enough to attract dealers, and their funding takes a bigger hit than anything else we could do.

Want another bonus to ending the war? We've seen a 6 times growth in the prison population since the late 1970's, and a pretty heavy growth in the load on our court systems too. We probably spend about as much as year between State, Federal, and foreign aid spending related to the drug war as we do in Iraq right now. We all panic about the cost of Iraq, but we do this every year and the costs just keep getting higher as we year by year escalate the efforts. We spend more in a year or two now than we used to in a decade. Want another one? How about our overloaded court systems, ending the war on drugs and reducing both those arrests and the violence related to them would reduce the load on our court systems by a great deal, perhaps offering them as much as twice the time per case that they now have. Real cases, real crimes against people rather than because you took or sold something that someone didn't like.

So, why are we in this drug war again?
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sweetheart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-07-05 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. excellent essay
Here's one i wrote that is winning on another website
open to good ideas and free speech:

http://www.whynot.net/view_idea?id=210

The whole drugs war is a sham... and the whole thing should end, full
stop... agreed. :-) Gosh, you know, if you don't stick around, at
least check back on DU around elections, as the website heats up 100
times more than (like now).
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Asgaya Dihi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-07-05 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Sure :)
I'll likely check in on this particular forum now and then, but I don't think I'll do any good on the rest of the board. My attitude is that at their hearts conservative just means slow and careful and liberal means let's consider something new, in rational doses I don't have a problem with either. Extremes are just an excuse to stop thinking.

On another board my attitude offers credibility maybe, I can look at and be critical of both sides. But here, I'm afraid I'd just get frustrated with the partisan thing. No doubt the Republicans as a party are outright nuts these days, but with media consolidation and church leaders telling them what to think most are just mislead and ill advised when we get down to the people. I'm better at getting between them and solving problems than playing a partisan, never have been much of a joiner. When I offend someone on both sides now and then, I know I'm doing something right ;) Here I'm just a partisan, there isn't another side.
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Tafiti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-07-05 11:10 PM
Response to Reply #6
13. I'm not being partisan in any way.
In fact, I'm not even a Democrat. Neither political party represents anything close to what I would consider labeling myself as. I was a political science major in college, and went from a conservative Republican from a fundamentalist Christian household, and gradually shifted left to a Democratic Socialist, basically. Of course, I voted for Kerry last November, but what other real choice was there? If Nader had any chance whatsoever, he would've gotten my vote. Trust me, I am no knee-jerk supporter of the Democratic party who gets defensive when criticized.

Given my "story", if you will, I think I have a pretty good insight into the thinking of both sides. Consider the fact that my Dad is a huge Rush Limbaugh fan, so when riding with him, I've sat through many of his radio shows. I've read conservative authors, listened to conservative radio, watched conservative news and commentary, et al. I also have an insider's perspective on the Religious Right, because that's what I grew up with, and that's what I was at one point in my life.

All this aside, I'm not sure why you responded the way you did to my post. What was it in my post made you think I thought the Democratic Party was perfect? Not only that, but I also said that I believed many conservatives probably think decriminalization is a good idea, but are afraid to publicly support it. Do you really believe that conservative voters would respond positively to their favorite godly and moral conservative representative coming out in support of decriminalization of a drug? "Tough on crime" has long been a popular political stance on both sides of the political aisle, but probably more so on the conservative side. And crime includes drug use. Ever since the Reagan administration passed Mandatory Minimum Drug Sentencing in the mid-80's, coupled with Nancy Reagan's "Just Say No" campaign, there's been a political tradition in this country of being anti-drug, often at the expense of clear and logical thinking when it comes to finding solutions to the so-called "drug problem" in this country. Personally, I agree with sweetheart below who views drug addicts not as criminals but patients. The prison industry is getting rich off this knee-jerk "tough on crime" political grandstanding, and ruins the lives of many by putting them behind bars for an insane amount of time.

As far as social workers go, I'm sorry you had such a bad experience with them. I admittedly don't know much of anything about the "industry", but I don't doubt that many have similar experiences to yours. It's a shame, period. But I'm not sure that has a lot to do with politics. It's just another bureaucracy that has its share of faults, complete with bad employees and bad policies. I'm not a bit surprised by your story. It's absolutely terrible what you went through, and I wish that sort of thing didn't happen to children, but it surely does all the time. But like I said, is that an issue of left and right?

I guess my point here is that no one can count on either political party to fix such injustices within that system, or any other. The election process in this country produces politicians that are forced to focus on hot-button issues that resonate with people's emotions to whip up support, and in so doing ignore the areas in society that have problems that need to be addressed. There's so much shit going on that needs fixing that may never be fixed. Every year, our legislative bodies introduce and implement more and more programs to fix this or that problem, but does the problem ever get solved? Nope. So the cycle repeats itself. I think the main problem is the fear of change in this country. To take a radical, new approach to any issue would be difficult to get a majority of the country to support. People seem to latch on to the idea that doing more of the same will work eventually, just put more money into it. That's always the solution: throw more money at it and that'll fix it.

One last thing - I'm not one of those people on DU that trash on conservatives simply because they're conservative. I sometimes wish that conservatives were allowed to post here so that people could has out issues and have discussions. Obviously, that would get a little messy so I understand why it's not allowed, because you're right, too many people on both sides would just resort to name-calling and offensive attacks. It would probably be the best way to get people to think about issues in a different way or offer a different perspective, but I digress.

Sorry for the long post, and welcome to DU! :toast:
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Asgaya Dihi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-07-05 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Apologies :)
I am sorry, I probably shouldn't have reacted quite like I did. I've just spent the last few days biting my tongue here, not because I don't agree with what most say when they get down to the problems but because of all the name calling that seems to go around too many conversations, at least in the politics forum.

Personally I've found that when people stop trying to label things and discuss the issues themselves they normally aren't as far apart as they'd first assumed. But the labels get in the way of actually discussing issues, so they never get solved. It's more damaging than people realize, nobody gives ground when backed into a corner and the nation has problems to solve. So it got to be a sore point, it wasn't your fault.
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Tafiti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-05 02:26 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. Hey, no need for apologies.
I wasn't offended or anything, I just wanted to clear the air on where I stand on things, because there's no way you could really tell from my short post above.

And don't get discouraged here on DU, you'll find disagreements and arguments everywhere here - probably because DUers are anywhere from conservative Democrats to Communists to Anarchists. I think the name-calling is what it is, just a sign of pure frustration. With 70,000 posters, you'll have that. But there are some great minds here, and I've learned a lot just reading threads around here. Sometimes you have to sift through some worthless posts, but that's par for the course.

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