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The Inequality of Voter’s Rights: Ex Offenders

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Proud_Democratt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-01-07 09:55 PM
Original message
The Inequality of Voter’s Rights: Ex Offenders
The Declaration of Independence, written by Thomas Jefferson, states this:
“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed."

Our democracy depends on the electoral participation by all members of a community and involves citizens of all backgrounds.


The rest here> http://www.prouddemocrats.net/viewtopic.php?t=128
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Dinger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-01-07 09:58 PM
Response to Original message
1. If You're A U.S. Citizen, I Think You Have The Right To Vote, Period
Just my opinion.
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Solo_in_MD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-01-07 10:11 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. Are you willing to extend that to other rights like firearms and carrying concealed handguns?
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Proud_Democratt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-01-07 10:23 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. I agree
Voting is not a lethal action....besides we're talking about EX offenders...people that paid their dues;

Keep in mind, not all felons are murderers or other perpetrators of heinous crimes. In some states theft of $500.00 (Grand Larceny), is deemed as a felony.

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Dinger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-01-07 11:38 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. I Think In Main & Vermont, Prisoners Can Vote
Wonder how that's going?
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Solo_in_MD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-01-07 10:10 PM
Response to Original message
2. If you commit serious crimes against society, you should lose certain rights, including voting
Also the D of I is not law...
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ChrisdemW Donating Member (116 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-26-07 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #2
12. when one out of ten young black men have been sent to prison
it drops representation for a whole segment of the population. and if its true that theyre building prisons to incarcerate hundreds of thousands more people for all we know they are expecting civil disobedience on a huge scale. so think about it, if prisoners and exfelons can vote that might be a protection for our whole nation.

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PDJane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-01-07 10:10 PM
Response to Original message
3. You should,
but some are more equal than others.
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-01-07 10:37 PM
Response to Original message
6. Amazing that states can determine who votes in a FEDERAL election! nt
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PDJane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-01-07 10:44 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. I'm also going to point out
That those laws are a holdover from the KKK era. That organization pushed to have those laws to suppress the black vote.

It still works.
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Proud_Democratt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-01-07 10:56 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Damned right
is does.
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Proud_Democratt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-01-07 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. It's very unfair
isn't it? But the ex-offender working at his/her job pays federal and state taxes!
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KC for Obama Donating Member (9 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-25-07 03:58 PM
Response to Original message
11. Legal Justification?
Does anybody know the legal rationale or justification for why ex-cons are not legally able to vote?
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Racegun Donating Member (2 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-27-07 11:48 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. Cons? Give me a break!
Convicts are still criminals with the criminal mindset that they want what they want regardless of what you think. I've worked within the criminal system and there is no good there except for the very rare exception. Why else would there be such a revolving door on the jailhouse/prison?
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Luke_R Donating Member (56 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-30-07 09:41 PM
Response to Original message
14. To say "every U.S. citizen should be able to vote" is to quesiton the validity of the Constitution.
Perhaps a better argument should be, "I think we should amend the Constitution", to reflect such an idea. Because, the fact is, the constitution does give the states rights to control who votes in the elections, and one can't reasonably argue that the constitution should not be the basis for our government.
Keep in mind, though, that the election is not a federal election. It is a state election for Electors. Perhaps what needs changed is to actually vote for electors by name, as most states don't allow the voter to know who he's voting for. Perhaps, instead, since we have a media that now allows us to be well informed, we need to amend the voting process.
Just food for thought.
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Donald Ian Rankin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-19-07 04:31 PM
Response to Original message
15. The founding fathers clearly didn't believe that criminals had a right to liberty.

As witnessed by the fact that they built prisons.

I think that depriving ex-felons of voting rights may well be misguided, but it's certainly not a violation of any fundamental principle.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-15-07 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Not at all true
Edited on Mon Oct-15-07 02:25 PM by iverglas
If the founders of the US hadn't believed that criminals had a right to freedom, they would not have included things like due process in their constitution.

If someone has no right to something, no due process is required in order to take it away from him/her.

Amendment V

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.


The right to liberty can be inferred from the rule that no one may be deprived of liberty without due process of law.

Imprisonment is a violation of the right to liberty that is generally regarded as justified in certain cases. It cannot be inferred from this that people who commit criminal offences do not have a right to freedom, or that anyone who believes that deprivation of liberty is justified in certain cases does not agree that people who commit criminal offences have a right to freedom.

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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-15-07 01:42 PM
Response to Original message
17. for anyone with a serious interest in this issue
Please do read Sauvé v. Canada (Chief Electoral Officer), <2002> 3 S.C.R. 519, 2002 SCC 68 -- the decision in which the Supreme Court of Canada (by a narrow margin) struck down the prohibition on voting by inmates in Canadian penitentiaries.

(Canada has never had a rule against people who have been convicted of criminal offences voting if they are not incarcerated. Similar provincial rules have also been struck down.)

http://scc.lexum.umontreal.ca/en/2002/2002scc68/2002scc68.html

The decision addresses all rationales for prohibiting people with criminal offences from voting, and offers several very strong arguments for permitting them to vote.

This bit addresses what tends to be the common argument made in the US to support such prohibitions:

43 The idea that certain classes of people are not morally fit or morally worthy to vote and to participate in the law-making process is ancient and obsolete. Edward III pronounced that citizens who committed serious crimes suffered “civil death”, by which a convicted felon was deemed to forfeit all civil rights. Until recently, large classes of people, prisoners among them, were excluded from the franchise. The assumption that they were not fit or “worthy” of voting — whether by reason of class, race, gender or conduct — played a large role in this exclusion. We should reject the retrograde notion that “worthiness” qualifications for voters may be logically viewed as enhancing the political process and respect for the rule of law. As Arbour J.A. stated in Sauvé No. 1, supra, at p. 487, since the adoption of s. 3 of the Charter, it is doubtful “that anyone could now be deprived of the vote on the basis ... that he or she was not decent or responsible”.

44 Denial of the right to vote on the basis of attributed moral unworthiness is inconsistent with the respect for the dignity of every person that lies at the heart of Canadian democracy and the Charter: compare August, supra. It also runs counter to the plain words of s. 3, its exclusion from the s. 33 override, and the idea that laws command obedience because they are made by those whose conduct they govern. For all these reasons, it must, at this stage of our history, be rejected.


It is also worth reading a little more about "civil death", which has been consigned to the ash heap of history in most places now. Wiki has an extremely brief entry that can serve as an introduction:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_death

Civil death is a term that refers to the loss of all or almost all civil rights by a person due to a conviction for a felony (a crime punishable with more than a year's imprisonment) or due to an act by the government of a country that results in the loss of civil rights. It is usually inflicted on persons convicted of crimes against the state or adults determined by a court to be legally incompetent because of mental disability.

A prominent example of civil death is the "illegal enemy combatant" designation used by the United States government, to avoid due process as described by the United States Constitution and protections for prisoners of war described in the Geneva Conventions. A second example of civil death on a wide scale is the use of purges by the former Soviet Union under Joseph Stalin.

Historically outlawry, that is, declaring a person as an outlaw, was a common form of civil death.


Note the philosophy that one is signing onto in advocating that civil death -- the loss of civil rights, such as voting rights -- be imposed on someone.

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 07:54 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Quantess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 09:00 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. That's quite a bold idea.
Automatic, no-appeal, death penalty for: child rape, practicing Islam, murder, attempted murder, treason, rape, and more.

Are you sure about this? From my perspective, the only good consequence of having so many executions would be a reduction in the human population.

:popcorn:
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