If you aren't SCARED, you aren't paying ATTENTION

[FirstLight]

Are we there yet? Are you outraged yet?
Does this look frightening to you?

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=18826405
NPR – All things Considered program 2/8/08 – regarding 8,800 federal buildings that have little to no security

Police strip search and jail a woman who called THEM for HELP
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x3174689
(This video is really disturbing – and this woman didn’t resist arrest or anything, did she deserve this?

FBI had hired thugs who have carte blanche to “shoot to kill”
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2836424
(Make sure you read the entire article linked..it’s chilling)

What is wrong with this picture? I fear there is more than meets the eye here, soon posts like this could bring said FBI thugs to my door because I am speaking against Our Beloved Big Brother.

And it is all for our own good, we are told. Terrorists are on the loose!
I fear for myself and my family, for our country and my countrymen & women…but not from any other terrorists than my own government.
What is this leading to? I have seen the words Martial Law on a few different occasions here, both spoken by fellow posters and in articles (see FBI article cited above)
I wonder if this is too far out for us to conceptualize, because we would like to believe that we are PROTECTED by our RIGHTS
Innocent until PROVEN Guilty
FREE Citizens in a Democracy

And at the same token, the money given to Homeland Security has not gone to protect our Government Buildings, Infrastructure, or Power-grids. Instead the Government is quietly hiring an armed “posse” to protect us from ourselves…? ( Or to protect them from us when we decide to revolt in the streets?)

I hate to be a fear monger. I hate to be so depressing and see such a crazy plot thickening like yesterdays milk…Is it possible that we may NOT get to an actual election in November? Is it possible that the war crimes committed by this administration are just the tip of the iceberg? Is it possible that the next pres we elect is nothing more than a figurehead, who will be under control of the Secret Police…? I sound like a conspiracy theorist (tin hat anyone?), and I hate the fact that the reality leaves little room for anything else. Just connecting the dots is a Conspiritors’ wet dream!

A few weeks ago I would have never dreamed that my worst nightmares of government control would be true, a week ago I watched a shaken John Edwards recite a speech that he surely did not write or believe in, and today I read the threads above, and hear news reports that bring all of these fears to bear. And there's SO much more... the economy is teetering ...Not to mention the ticking time bomb of this planet and the weather this winter that seems to prove the models are all happening faster than originally thought…

Tell me fellow Democrats, what is the answer? How do we fight back, and survive the wave that is yet to come? It is more than an election on the line…

I know that some of you will call me a fatalist, and I admit that I do have that tendency...
Just trying to get some feedback on how "We the People" plan to handle this loss of Civil Liberties. Will it happen without a fight? Obviously our Congress isn't going to protect us, what would George Washington say? Personally, I think he'd be marching on the White House himself by now!

[fenriswolf]

1. first time an american citizen is disappeared off the streets

I am disappearing myself.

[FirstLight]

2. You know it!

I am glad I live in a large National Forestland...it may be easier to dissapear there! Robin Hood Style!

[lligrd]

4. How Do We Know They Haven't

We are not likely to know about it.

[fenriswolf]

5. well right

but when we do start to notice, shops not opening up anymore, a member on here saying they don't know where so and so is, I will not know when the first person is but we will definitely know if it is a tactic they start using casually.

big hint would be when the halliburton concentration camps open up for business.

[Andrea]

40. What worries me

is that by the time we notice these things, it will be too late to get out. How do we avoid waiting too long? How can we be sure we don't miss the window of opportunity for leaving?

[lligrd]

3. I'm Far More Scared Of This Chit Than Any Of The "Terrorists"

* has been using for propaganda.

[fenriswolf]

6. terrorist terra is garbage

government terrorism is becoming an all to familier sight. I will never forget when a code pink lady was arrested for reading the constitution.

[OKthatsIT]

36. Call it what is...The War on Terror is a Fraud

see...was that so hard?

[madrchsod]

7. yup...it`s bin laden`s america

he has done just what he said he was going to do.

[Double T]

8. The empire is crumbling............

and the planet is being destroyed. Man's greed and irresponsibility will end the civilization.

[Andreshunter77]

31. The question isn't "if"

but when.

[bigbrother05]

9. We have wondered if Blivet will go peacefully

what are the odds he would pull something if he thinks a Dem win is certain?

[FirstLight]

10. So the question then becomes... what now?

If we see the train coming, can we jump off the tracks?
many of us here say we''d hide or leave the country...is that a viable possibility?

How do we regain our civil liberties when we have no legal or electoral recourse?

[fenriswolf]

11. on the streets? by force?

[FirstLight]

12. I like your gumption!

...I am afraid that my skills with the bowstave may be a tad out of league with tasers or machine guns!

HEYAHH! ;)

[fenriswolf]

13. yeah not gonna happen, at least not for awhile.

[FirstLight]

14. Good, cuz I'm outta shape! lol

...too much time with the TV, the opiate of today's masses...

[Fresh_Start]

15. after a lifetime of being anti-gun, my pacificist husband

guns and more guns....

He decided it was the first time in his life he was seriously afraid of what our government would do to us

[FirstLight]

16. Yes, I totally get that concept...

I have always been an anti-hunting, etc type.. now I am encouraging my teenager to learn these survival skills for future reference...

I feel silly thinking about survivalism, but it may not be too far off...

[Fresh_Start]

17. well he hadn't gone as far as survivalism....

but he did go far enough that he can make make his own ammo and repair his own guns
hell he joined the NRA (gag)

I grew up with guns...had a gun rack on the summer kitchen wall and a hunting shack in the woods type of family.
So I'm not anti-gun

[FirstLight]

18. and this isn't very encouraging either...

the FDIC is on "deathwatch"...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=114x34155

get ready for a wild & woolly ride folks.

[Fresh_Start]

19. no, but I don't have more in the bank that the insured limit

but I have non-FDIC funds at a broker. They are insured but not by the FDIC. Thanks for reminding me to recheck that insurance.

[Andrea]

41. I've always favored gun control and

believed that the 2nd amendment referred to the right of the states to maintain a National Guard. I still think that's true, but I've become willing to bend the rules a bit. It's bizarre, but I believe we need to have access to weapons to protect ourselves from our own government.

[FirstLight]

20. OMG there are so many threads I could link here!

Torture okay
backdoor draft
waterboarding
economy failing worse than expected
Ice caps, melting faster
FBI
warcrimes
wiretapping
...
and so much more I can't even go there

shiiittt!
is this for real? and there's still SO MUCH MORE

who is handling contingency plans these days?... hey, where's the Ark commitee?

[FirstLight]

21. another link to the idea...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=226x5958


are we paying attention people?

[vickitulsa]

22. I'm glad you're paying attention, Journalgrrl.

I read a thread a couple of days ago where DUers were having some fun with the notion of torture. They were (half?) joking about how they'd turn each other in in a heartbeat if tortured or even threatened with torture.

I had to laugh too, because they made it funny.

But I can never forget what I learned the hard way when my (now ex-) husband was busted for selling pot -- on a miniscule scale, mind you -- and the narc squad tracked back to where I was and scooped me up too. I ended up doing 4-1/2 months in prison, and man do you ever learn fast once they put you in cuffs, hands behind your back (that hurts most people over 40, which I was), and haul your ass away.

First the city/county jail is scary -- sometimes as scary as what that woman in your cited video went through. It's hard to know at first who to be more frightened of, your jailors or the other prisoners. If it's your first time, other prisoners who've been there before often get a kick out of just putting some fear into you about what you will face. They'll even lie about it, exaggerating just to see you go pale and show fear.

Over time you learn there are some on both sides you can count on to be abusive and some you can look to for help or even friendship.

But one thing you realize for certain is that once they have you locked up, you are literally and quite truly HELPLESS.

First-timers in jail or prison often witness things being done routinely to inmates that shock the shit out of them and will say things like, "But they can't DO that!" The inevitable reply to that from jaded oldtimers is, "They can do an-y-thing they want." Deadpan, usually, without much emotion, because they've seen so much abuse nothing much shocks them anymore.

That gets you REALLY scared.

----

I started to go on, but my intent is not to needlessly frighten you or others here. I'm just sayin', you are right: there is good reason to be VERY concerned about what's happening in our country. I am convinced that over these last seven years this administration has been force-feeding fear to citizens so they will be compliant and obedient no matter how many rights are stripped away.

And I feel they've succeeded to an alarming degree.

I wish I could offer a reasonable answer to your request for feedback and ideas on what we can do about it, but sadly -- and even though I've been thinking about this a LOT -- I haven't yet come up with many really good options. I'm also disabled (and living in poverty because of that), so I can't fight back in ways that require physical strength and independence, though when I was young I was close to capable of a survivalist lifestyle.

When you think about it, a police state could easily dispense with most Boomers like me by simply denying medical care even more than it is now.

My suggestions? Become as fit and strong as you can and acquire all the survival skills you can. Plan ahead with family or close friends for how you might best help each other out in ANY emergency.

And strange as it may sound, practice being brave. We could all use a heap more courage, and it can be developed. A sense of your own readiness will do wonders for your ability to think clearly and act confidently when it is time for action.

And lastly, don't give up on brainstorming for new and workable ideas on how to reverse the negative and frightening trends in our once-great nation. The bad guys may have made a lot of headway, but their success is NOT a foregone conclusion yet -- not by a long shot!

[FirstLight]

23. Oh, Vicki! thank you so much!

...cultivate being brave....

If that doesn't sum up the slings and arrows of my own personal journey! Aside from the crazyness of the planet and the government...(which I have to say I HAVE been trying to ignore in the face of my own survival in this mess..)

I was arrested in front of my house, with my (not yet) abusive ex and my children watching, baby girl in the window crying for me... and he laughed... see, I was in an abusive marriage and had very few chances to try and have a minute alone, I went to the gym 1/4 mile from our house...but he hadn't registered the car, and also hadn't taken me to get a renewed license (yes, "taken" me...I wa a prisoner in my own home for three years almost)...so when the cops followed me home and told me I'd have to "come with them" in the driveway...I was shocked, and pretty scared

Never had I been in the back of a police car
I told them I'd go, but could I just make sure my infant sone was nursed before they took me in?
they cuffed me right then (and yes, those cuffs HURT) and said I couldn't set foot in the house or they couldn't some after me with out force, they'd say I was resisting...
so the 5-6 hours in containment was cold and boring, I tried to make small talk and did manage to have them laughing with me about the irony...since my husband was the ex-felon in the family...hahaha...
my parents bailed me out, and I ran for my life from that man (with 3 kids in tow) shortly thereafter...
been rebuilding a life for 4 years now
in a country that abhors the poor
with a government that criminalizes those who need the most help

The scary part is that they believe their own spin
they think they HAVE compassion, they think they ARE protecting us

it is SO like an abusive marriage, I want to :puke:

[FirstLight]

24. here's more links to the "Beginning of the END rant..."

16 yr old Iraqi girl… how horrible a life. PTSD anyone?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2835896

Fantasy/torture Island…former prisoner speaks about American principles…
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2835461

and here’s more fun on the economy!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2837867


“ let me ‘splain…no,’ would take too long…let me sum up!”
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2835907&mesg_id=2835907

[vickitulsa]

27. Bumping this thread just once more

to let you know that I appreciated your response, Journalgrrl, and what you shared of your own story. Some DUers seem to think we should never post personal stuff here, but we're human beings, after all, and often we can reveal our best thoughts -- not to mention lessons learned and wisdom gained -- when we put them in the context of our lives.

I gather that you made a huge leap in both insight and courage after your abusive mate laughed at you in an excruciating and deeply frightening moment for you. Probably you had been accumulating some bravery bit by bit over the time you spent with that lowlife who behaved like a jailor and boss, so that when things came to a nasty head that day, you realized you had to end the nightmare.

My father was extremely abusive, and he was also a State Trooper! -- so I had a terrible fear of cops to begin with AND a tendency to obey them without hesitation or question for a long time. My rights? Hah! I was smart enough to know I had them, but to invoke them face to face with a uniformed officer -- no way!

And that upbringing "programmed" me, odd as it seems to some people who haven't walked in those shoes, to gravitate to similarly abusive men as mates in my life. I even married my first husband primarily to GET away from my dad, in fact, after he intervened when Pops was attacking me and decked the old man right there in his own house! Of course, then I had to find enough courage to leave the young husband with no help at all, as he was like you describe yours to be -- a virtual jailor who didn't like having me out of his sight.

Even my last husband, whom I chose specifically "against type" because by then I realized I was unwittingly choosing abusive guys (and then trying hard to please and change them with my "love"), was abusive in his own passive-aggressive ways. Because that was so different from what I was used to, I didn't recognize it to be "abusive" at all for quite a long time. I was also determined to make the marriage last, so I stayed with him for 15 years. This guy was the one who sold pot, and I had been foolish enough to keep on trying to persuade him to STOP instead of just leaving him.

My mother had told me many times, "Don't marry a man thinking you can change him, because you can't," but obviously I had to learn that truth the hard way!

By then I was old enough and had at least gained enough self regard to realize I didn't have to have a man at all in order to be happy and fulfilled. In spite of the fact that my disability was beginning to become serious by then, limiting what I could do to enjoy life, these years since I decided to stop seeking fulfillment in a relationship with a man have been the happiest of my life. I'm 58 now and never feel lonely -- or scared of being alone.

I figured at that point I needed to learn how to "fly solo" before I could make a really good partner for anyone, anyway, and I feel I've done that. Now, if I find a great, non-abusive guy to "grow golden" with, fine. If not, that's okay too.

I'm very proud of you for getting out of your abusive marriage, especially with three kids in tow! Rebuilding your life isn't easy, but it surely is worth doing and so rewarding in the end.

You no doubt understand, too, what a gift you gave your children in removing them from that toxic emotional environment. My own mother wasn't that strong, and she regretted it and felt guilty all her life.

Oh, and you are SO RIGHT about how our government's relationship with us citizens is very like an abusive marriage, too! I had never thought of it that way, but you're spot-on there.

Hang in there, Journalgrrl -- you're gonna make it! There are some things no man or government can ever take from us, once we have them.

--Vicki

[SammyWinstonJack]

26. Well Obama says we can just "vote the bums out" I guess that will make everything okay and put it

all back together again. :eyes: He isn't even willing to make these thugs accountable and neither is Hillary for that matter. I wonder what else they are unwilling too do?

[vickitulsa]

28. Just saw your post, BSN, and I completely agree with you.

It's very disheartening and hard to accept that those we have left to choose from are extremely unlikely to turn this ship around. I figure we can count on either of them to break campaign promises galore once installed in that ultimate office of power.

How CAN we hold them to their word, after all?

However, perhaps ReadTomPaine is right, and we should just recognize that this "titanic" ship of state didn't get where it is now overnight; that we ARE making some small but steady progress; and that we need to keep on working toward our goal. Pulling as hard as we can, one "oarstroke" at a time, I guess I might say (since I started this silly metaphor), and even in the deep water we're in at this point. :)

My own experience has been that in our lives we end up going through cycles of hoping, trying, getting somewhere, then being disappointed when we fall short ... but then we recover from the letdown and start hoping and working again. MAYBE if we don't give up, we'll get there in time!

[FirstLight]

29. I came back to check on this rant...

and found support - the like of which I have not felt in years...
sure, I have friends, and even a church who stands beside me when going gets rough in the trenches...

But the Intellectual passion is something I Truly appreciate here - thanks.

Poverty seems to be the least of my troubles at certain times, at others, is is all consuming!

and yes, I agree that "just keep swimming" is often my own personal motto

we DO keep going, it is a survival instinct

and the more I read about money laundering, arms deals, and horrific acts.(..I think I have heard the word "nefarious" used here a few times....)
It makes me think about the survival skills I learned when planning my escape from my marriage may actually have been "training" in some sense for the future that lies ahead....

and I still hope

I hope for truth, for jusitice, and the American way.... not the underhanded dealings we have seen in decades past

this is a NEW paradigm, we HAVE to believe that we can build something greater out of our ashes

(when people aske me "how do you DO it...as a single mom...?")

"I cry when I have to, and I still get up the next morning and get breakfest and keep plugging away..."

No surrender, my friends!

[Echo In Light]

25. K&R

[f the letter]

30. Welcome to the police state. Please enjoy! n/t

[robert yates]

32. first step

is recognize that this country is not a "democracy," or at least its not *supposed* to be anyhow. We are supposed to be a federal republic, with a written constitution designed to constrain the powers of the state -- especially the federal government.

It's precisely because people have been indoctrinated to believe that we live in a *democracy*, that the government is able to get away with such blatant usurpations of power and violations of individual rights. People have been suckered into this nonsensical belief that "we are the government" (a la Michael Moore), and thus it follows that anything the government does is okay, because "we're doing it to ourselves." Draconian taxation is okay, because "we're paying it to ourselves." The $9,000,000,000,000 national debt is okay, because "we owe it to ourselves." But in reality, the "we" and the "ourselves," are two completely different sets of people.

We all have to realize that freedom works, if we would just let it. We all have to start demanding that government officials start honoring their oath to "defend and uphold the Constitution." And that means that "Democrats" will have to start educating themselves about economics, praxeology, and history. You will have to start realizing that coercion is not the answer -- not to poverty, not to "social justice," not to anything except lawful defense of life, liberty, and property. Voluntary action and peaceful, cooperative, free market exchange is the best way to bring about a tranquil, prosperous society, and voluntary charity is the best way to attend to the needs of the less fortunate.

In other words, we all have to start remembering that a government powerful enough to give us everything we want, is by definition a government powerful enough to take from us everything we have.

Then we will be on the road to reclaiming our liberty.

[Echo In Light]

33. People sense what's happening but are afraid to call it by name

[wogget]

34. sites like this

allow for the framework to fight back against the creeping, tumbling descent. I'm not sure the Democratic Party in the large sense is particularly engaged against it-- Look at what Reid and Rockefeller are doing to gut FISA (a law that is the barest husk of protections anyway). Engaged and active citizenry directing out leaders (not letting them 'lead' us) is the only answer.

[Echo In Light]

35. Sadly I doubt most dems or otherwise accurately perceive the slippery slope

[OKthatsIT]

37. It's too bad the 9/11 Commission and media was so corrupt...

we could have stop these criminals years ago.

[Callisto32]

38. I, personally, have been worried about this stuff for a while.

I think it really goes back to when the PATRIOT (balderdash acronym if there ever was one) act was new and I printed the thing out and took it to high school and tried to get somebody to even look at it. What really got me worried is that the 17 year olds, whom I thought would still be young enough to not be jaded by decades of government abuse, took the stance of self-imposed ignorance. Governments seem to always try to pull stuff that subjugate their custodial populations, and they succeed when those populations allow it to happen.

Anyway, the election. Frankly, it doesn't really matter, I don't think. Look at the so-called "viable" candidates on either side of whatever line you want to draw. They are all basically the same, with different rhetoric/talking points attached to them. Will the current group of jokers give a huff if a Dem wins? Hell no, because in the end its all the same. That is how it seems to me.

As for running away into the wilderness when/if it hits the fan. Well, I guess that would work, if they didn't care about you in the first place. If the gummint wants you, the gummint gets you. All they need is a basic idea of where you are and a helicopter equipped with a FLIR system, really. You could hid in a cave, but then its just a matter of some kind of sick, slightly modified game of chicken.

What can we do? I think the best possible answer is to try to instill in ourselves, our children, and whomever we contact regularly some of that revolutionary spirit. I think that I am legally required to say that I am not advocating violence here. Rather, I am talking about a rebirth of outrage. "Righteous indignation" if you will. "Say it with me! I'm mad as hell, and I'm not going to take this anymore!." That kind of thing.

However, I also think that we must be willing to take it to that terrible level, if forced into a defensive situation. If the government becomes violently tyrannical with its own people then we must be willing, and arguably have a duty, to overthrow that government by whatever means are necessary and set into place a new, temporarily just (I say this this way because history has shown us all that all governments eventually decay) government to replace the tyranny. Heaven forbid that it should ever come to armed conflict. That is (to make the understatement of the century) no good for anybody involved. Should something reach that point, it is utterly important that "they" be the ones to fire the first shot. I cannot justify any aggressive act of violence by anyone. Unfortunately, not everyone agrees with that guideline.

This has gone on longer than I intended so here is the short version: Be prepared to survive (and thrive) in whatever situation you may find yourself, and cultivate in yourself the proactive, revolutionary spirit. Work within the system until the system breaks down, then build a new one. If you can, make the current one better.

I know a lot of this has been said many, many times in the past. Also, I'm not so sure just how much sense I made, I swear it made sense in my head.

Peace,

Zane

[Caria]

39. Death of Michael Futi

What is going on with the investigations into the death of Michael Futi, the two-week-old baby (US Citizen, too!) who died in detention in an airport in Hawaii?