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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-22-10 08:56 AM
Original message
Defining "Women" -- need help with a project (x-post from GD)
I'm involved in a women's group that had their first meeting last night. We're mostly a social service organization, donating and volunteering en masse for local women's crisis operations, while serving as a support network for members' individual projects.

This inspiration for the group came when one of the women looked up the definition of woman for use in a personal project. She Googled. And what she found was inadequate at best; and bizarre, if not insulting if you thought about it for very long:


Google
Definitions of woman on the Web:
-- an adult female person (as opposed to a man); "the woman kept house while the man hunted"
-- a female person who plays a significant role (wife or mistress or girlfriend) in the life of a particular man; "he was faithful to his woman"
-- charwoman: a human female employed to do housework; "the char will clean the carpet"; "I have a woman who comes in four hours a day while I write"
-- womanhood: women as a class; "it's an insult to American womanhood"; "woman is the glory of creation"; "the fair sex gathered on the veranda"


It occurred to her that this definition didn't suit any woman that she knows, and so she put the question to the group -- which I am putting to you, my DU friends -- How would you change or improve this definition.

What do you consider to be the defining characteristics of "women." For example, if the archaic "charwoman" can be the third in Google's list of womanly definitions, what would you replace it with?

What characteristics of "women" do you believe have been lost in this definition. We need adjectives and stories and broad philosophical rants. No editing -- just brainstorm.

Thanks in advance!! -- brook
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ejpoeta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-22-10 09:16 AM
Response to Original message
1. well it seems the problem with the definition is that women apparently
only exist in conjunction with men. this makes sense if you read fairy tales and see the social engineering in this country. i mean, when i hear how women dream their whole lives of their wedding day, the best day of their lives.... i want to hurl. women seem to only exist to have babies and raise kids and take care of their husbands. all the progress we have made and we STILL seem to have this.

i would say a woman is a female person. why does it have to be as opposed to a man. a female is a person possessing a uterus and a vagina. i could start getting sarcastic here but i won't.
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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-22-10 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. wow -- this really gets to the chewy center of it, and why "definitions" are important
i couldn't agree more. that, our definition would have meaning only as conjunctive with men, is truly toxic to both genders. and, i think that without knowing, this is what our group is grappling with. i think that there's a sense that in everyday life our definitions of ourselves is a) not in our control, and b) not to our advantage (emotionally and in the work community).

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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-22-10 09:38 AM
Response to Original message
2. i wanted to bring this over, men, females, male, so it is part of your discussion
Edited on Sun Aug-22-10 09:39 AM by seabeyond
define men

man, adult male (an adult person who is male (as opposed to a woman)) "there were two women and six men on the bus"
•S: (n) serviceman, military man, man, military personnel (someone who serves in the armed forces; a member of a military force) "two men stood sentry duty"
•S: (n) man (the generic use of the word to refer to any human being) "it was every man for himself"
•S: (n) homo, man, human being, human (any living or extinct member of the family Hominidae characterized by superior intelligence, articulate speech, and erect carriage) •S: (n) man (a male subordinate) "the chief stationed two men outside the building"; "he awaited word from his man in Havana"
•S: (n) man (an adult male person who has a manly character (virile and courageous competent)) "the army will make a man of you"
•S: (n) valet, valet de chambre, gentleman, gentleman's gentleman, man (a manservant who acts as a personal attendant to his employer) "Jeeves was Bertie Wooster's man"
•S: (n) man (a male person who plays a significant role (husband or lover or boyfriend) in the life of a particular woman) "she takes good care of her man"
man, piece (game equipment consisting of an object used in playing certain board games) "he taught me to set up the men on the chess board"; "he sacrificed a piece to get a strategic advantage
world, human race, humanity, humankind, human beings, humans, mankind, man (all of the living human inhabitants of the earth) "all the world loves a lover"; "she always used `humankind' because `mankind' seemed to slight the women"
•S: (n) work force, workforce, manpower, hands, men (the force of workers available)
-----------------

look at the two definitions next to each other. the only definition for man that has to do with woman, the woman SERVES him. all other definition has nothing to do with women.

all definitions of women is link to her service to man



define female
Noun
•S: (n) female (an animal that produces gametes (ova) that can be fertilized by male gametes (spermatozoa)) •S: (n) female, female person (a person who belongs to the sex that can have babies) Adjective
•S: (adj) female (being the sex (of plant or animal) that produces fertilizable gametes (ova) from which offspring develop) "a female heir"; "female holly trees bear the berries"
•S: (adj) female, distaff (characteristic of or peculiar to a woman) "female sensitiveness"; "female suffrage"
•S: (adj) female (for or pertaining to or composed of women or girls) "the female lead in the play"; "a female chorus



define male
Noun
•S: (n) male (an animal that produces gametes (spermatozoa) that can fertilize female gametes (ova)) •S: (n) male, male person (a person who belongs to the sex that cannot have babies) •S: (n) Male (the capital of Maldives in the center of the islands) Adjective
•S: (adj) male (being the sex (of plant or animal) that produces gametes (spermatozoa) that perform the fertilizing function in generation) "a male infant"; "a male holly tree"
•S: (adj) male, manful, manlike, manly, virile (characteristic of a man) "a deep male voice"; "manly sports"
•S: (adj) male (for or pertaining to or composed of men or boys) "the male lead"; "the male population"
----------------


at least in the definition of female and male we get our own identity
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ensho Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-22-10 09:53 AM
Response to Original message
3. Websters' First New Intergalactic Wickedary of the English Language


by Dr. Mary Daly


this should help answer the question
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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-22-10 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. i met Mary Daly many years ago, and she signed my copy of Gyn/Ecology.
i completely agree on your point, especially as relates to mary daly.

even though i did a lot of women's studies in college, i'm trying to keep my own academic work out of the discussion in the hopes of facilitating a collection of new narratives. i want to bring stories and ideas to the table that will open up discussion...even though i have some pretty strong ideas of my own regarding what the answers are. my answers aren't nearly as interesting or powerful as other women's experience.
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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-22-10 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #3
9. i actually keep thinking of Sojourner Truth's "Ain't I a Woman" speech wrt definitions...
That man over there say
a woman needs to be helped into carriages
and lifted over ditches
and to have the best place everywhere.
Nobody ever helped me into carriages
or over mud puddles
or gives me a best place. . .

And ain't I a woman?
Look at me
Look at my arm!
I have plowed and planted
and gathered into barns
and no man could head me. . .
And ain't I a woman?
I could work as much
and eat as much as a man--
when I could get to it--
and bear the lash as well
and ain't I a woman?
I have born 13 children
and seen most all sold into slavery
and when I cried out a mother's grief
none but Jesus heard me. . .
and ain't I a woman?
that little man in black there say
a woman can't have as much rights as a man
cause Christ wasn't a woman
Where did your Christ come from?
From God and a woman!
Man had nothing to do with him!
If the first woman God ever made
was strong enough to turn the world
upside down, all alone
together women ought to be able to turn it
rightside up again.
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-22-10 10:06 AM
Response to Original message
4. Female: the gender which chooses.
Male: the gender which offers.

The point of patriarchy seeming to be gross interference in the natural order.
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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-22-10 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. that is really interesting...is this your own thinking, or does it come from a book that might
be good to read and share?

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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-22-10 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. I don't know if it's in books. Lotta articles on female behavior.
Lotta articles in the last thirty years. Even so, an anthropologist recently put forth a theory that we became bipedal so men could carry gifts to entice females. It is hard to know what to do when someone that stupid has multiple degrees. (No, we didn't rearrange our pelvic structure because a guy gave us presents!)

Another anthropologist (anthropologists, as a whole, believe six impossible things before breakfast, most having to do with bipedalism or women) believes that women began cooking to entice men. Yah, that's the ticket. HAVING TO FEED THE TODDLERS PLAYING AT HER FEET PROBABLY HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH IT.

Females choose. They have to. Any guy will tell you how great he is. The female's duty is to get the best genes she can for her kids. She wants them smart, strong, and disease free. She wants them to live to grow up. So the female looks at what's presented and makes her best selection. Check every species you can find. Females choose.

With apes we had a storyline going for decades about Alpha males, the big bad chimp who got any female he wanted with aggression no matter what her inclinations. Then we started DNA testing the offspring and our scientists damn near passed out from the shock. Seems the Alpha male genes were not predominant. Nuh uh. Beta males who passed up aggression in favor of supplying nice treats, doing a little babysitting, and spending hours getting those tics out of her fur ended up having more offspring, well, who knew?

Females choose. Check the data. About 4000 years of human civilization has been actively devoted to preventing women from choosing. So how healthy has that been for our offspring?
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-10 01:05 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. interesting. thanks aquart. nt
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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-10 07:11 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. ah! thanks for unpacking that. i was confused about what it was we were choosing.
that's very interesting. i knew that about the chimps -- i love it when data overthrows the received notions.

wow -- those anthropologists are silly!!!!
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-10 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. My favorite is Man the Mighty Hunter.
Turns out, whatever Mighty Hunter might have been doing with his time, Mama and the kids were stuffing themselves with fluffy bunnies caught with that first appurtenance of a goddess, the NET.

One of the museums actually changed its exhibit to show a female cave lady with her net. Yet high-degreed idiots still insist that Mama was waiting home, hungry, for Daddy to return with a hunk of steak.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-10 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. can you point me in a direction to this info. nt
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-10 11:33 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. A quick google....
http://discovermagazine.com/1998/apr/newwomenoftheice1430http://discovermagazine.com/1998/apr/newwomenoftheice1430

Over the next six decades, Czech archeologists expanded the excavations at Dolní Ve vstonice, painstakingly combing the site square meter by square meter. By the 1990s they had unearthed thousands of bone, stone, and clay artifacts and had wrested 19 radiocarbon dates from wood charcoal that sprinkled camp floors. And they had shaded and refined their portrait of Ice Age life. Between 29,000 and 25,000 years ago, they concluded, wandering bands had passed the cold months of the year repeatedly at Dolní Ve vstonice. Armed with short-range spears, the men appeared to have been specialists in hunting tusk-wielding mammoths and other big game, hauling home great mountains of meat to feed their dependent mates and children. At night men feasted on mammoth steaks, fed their fires with mammoth bone, and fueled their sexual fantasies with tiny figurines of women carved from mammoth ivory and fired from clay. It was the ultimate man’s world.

Or was it? Over the past few months, a small team of American archeologists has raised some serious doubts. Amassing critical and previously overlooked evidence from Dolní Ve vstonice and the neighboring site of Pavlov, Olga Soffer, James Adovasio, and David Hyland now propose that human survival there had little to do with manly men hurling spears at big-game animals. Instead, observes Soffer, one of the world’s leading authorities on Ice Age hunters and gatherers and an archeologist at the University of Illinois in Champaign-Urbana, it depended largely on women, plants, and a technique of hunting previously invisible in the archeological evidence—net hunting. This is not the image we’ve always had of Upper Paleolithic macho guys out killing animals up close and personal, Soffer explains. Net hunting is communal, and it involves the labor of children and women. And this has lots of implications.

Many of these implica-tions make her conservative colleagues cringe because they raise serious questions about the focus of previous studies. European archeologists have long concentrated on analyzing broken stone tools and butchered big-game bones, the most plentiful and best preserved relics of the Upper Paleolithic era (which stretched from 40,000 to 12,000 years ago). From these analyses, researchers have developed theories about how these societies once hunted and gathered food. Most researchers ruled out the possibility of women hunters for biological reasons. Adult females, they reasoned, had to devote themselves to breast-feeding and tending infants. Human babies have always been immature and dependent, says Soffer. If women are the people who are always involved with biological reproduction and the rearing of the young, then that is going to constrain their behavior. They have to provision that child. For fathers, provisioning is optional.
Over the next six decades, Czech archeologists expanded the excavations at Dolní Ve vstonice, painstakingly combing the site square meter by square meter. By the 1990s they had unearthed thousands of bone, stone, and clay artifacts and had wrested 19 radiocarbon dates from wood charcoal that sprinkled camp floors. And they had shaded and refined their portrait of Ice Age life. Between 29,000 and 25,000 years ago, they concluded, wandering bands had passed the cold months of the year repeatedly at Dolní Ve vstonice. Armed with short-range spears, the men appeared to have been specialists in hunting tusk-wielding mammoths and other big game, hauling home great mountains of meat to feed their dependent mates and children. At night men feasted on mammoth steaks, fed their fires with mammoth bone, and fueled their sexual fantasies with tiny figurines of women carved from mammoth ivory and fired from clay. It was the ultimate man’s world.

Or was it? Over the past few months, a small team of American archeologists has raised some serious doubts. Amassing critical and previously overlooked evidence from Dolní Ve vstonice and the neighboring site of Pavlov, Olga Soffer, James Adovasio, and David Hyland now propose that human survival there had little to do with manly men hurling spears at big-game animals. Instead, observes Soffer, one of the world’s leading authorities on Ice Age hunters and gatherers and an archeologist at the University of Illinois in Champaign-Urbana, it depended largely on women, plants, and a technique of hunting previously invisible in the archeological evidence—net hunting. This is not the image we’ve always had of Upper Paleolithic macho guys out killing animals up close and personal, Soffer explains. Net hunting is communal, and it involves the labor of children and women. And this has lots of implications.

Many of these implica-tions make her conservative colleagues cringe because they raise serious questions about the focus of previous studies. European archeologists have long concentrated on analyzing broken stone tools and butchered big-game bones, the most plentiful and best preserved relics of the Upper Paleolithic era (which stretched from 40,000 to 12,000 years ago). From these analyses, researchers have developed theories about how these societies once hunted and gathered food. Most researchers ruled out the possibility of women hunters for biological reasons. Adult females, they reasoned, had to devote themselves to breast-feeding and tending infants. Human babies have always been immature and dependent, says Soffer. If women are the people who are always involved with biological reproduction and the rearing of the young, then that is going to constrain their behavior. They have to provision that child. For fathers, provisioning is optional.

http://www.s8int.com/sophis5.html

http://essayweb.net/history/ancient/prehistory_04.shtml

The Gutenberg Project also has collections of letters from women homesteaders...the one I read would camp out alone at night except for her baby, and hunt, kill, dress, and cook her dinner of squirrel.

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rocktivity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-22-10 10:29 AM
Response to Original message
5. "woman" is short for "womb-man"
Edited on Sun Aug-22-10 11:20 AM by rocktivity
That is to say, men with wombs.

:headbang:
rocktivity
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One_Life_To_Give Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-10 09:29 AM
Response to Original message
13. Using Google to define Words??
Edited on Mon Aug-23-10 09:30 AM by One_Life_To_Give
I guess growing up listening to Bob Steele I have the view that English Words should be referenced to Websters. Although the folks across the pond seem to prefer Oxford, or so I hear.
Anyway from Websters;

wom·an
\ˈwu̇-mən, especially Southern ˈwō- or ˈwə-\ noun
plural wom·en\ˈwi-mən\
Definition of WOMAN
1
a : an adult female person b : a woman belonging to a particular category (as by birth, residence, membership, or occupation) —usually used in combination <councilwoman>
2: womankind
3: distinctively feminine nature : womanliness
4: a woman who is a servant or personal attendant


Origin of WOMAN
Middle English, from Old English wīfman, from wīf woman, wife + man human being, man
First Known Use: before 12th century
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-10 09:14 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. yes. they use to actually have webster in google. i try to find webster
or oxford. i look up the word to get an accurate definition. the whole reason. thanks for the reminder to pull out my book.
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uncommon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-25-10 10:42 AM
Response to Original message
18. Woman: n. female human being
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