Introduction and request.

[bluedawg12]

Hello everyone-

This seems like an awfully interesting group. I am not a member of any groups, so I am not sure how this works and I thought I had better check in and ask for permission to post on various topics of interest.

I enjoy looking things up, searching the literature and discussion about scientific topics. I hope I am welcome here. I don't mean to be "skeptical" but I thought I had better check first. LOL!

peace

bluedog12 :hi:

[bluedawg12]

1. This is the thread that caught my eye and prompted me to enquire

about participating in this group. I have to get to work, but I thought I'd share this before I lose the link.

It has to do with the thread about acupuncture and the BMJ's interst in studying this technique. The full article is available at the link below,for free. :)

peace-
bd12

http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/338/jan27_2/a3115

Published 27 January 2009, doi:10.1136/bmj.a3115
Cite this as: BMJ 2009;338:a3115

Research
Acupuncture treatment for pain: systematic review of randomised clinical trials with acupuncture, placebo acupuncture, and no acupuncture groups
Matias Vested Madsen, physician, Peter C Gøtzsche, director, Asbjørn Hróbjartsson, senior researcher

1 Nordic Cochrane Centre, Rigshospitalet, Department 3343, Blegdamsvej 9, DK-2100 Copenhagen, Denmark


Objectives To study the analgesic effect of acupuncture and placebo acupuncture and to explore whether the type of the placebo acupuncture is associated with the estimated effect of acupuncture.
Design Systematic review and meta-analysis of three armed randomised clinical trials.

Data sources Cochrane Library, Medline, Embase, Biological Abstracts, and PsycLIT.

Data extraction and analysis Standardised mean differences from each trial were used to estimate the effect of acupuncture and placebo acupuncture. The different types of placebo acupuncture were ranked from 1 to 5 according to assessment of the possibility of a physiological effect, and this ranking was meta-regressed with the effect of acupuncture.

Data synthesis Thirteen trials (3025 patients) involving a variety of pain conditions were eligible. The allocation of patients was adequately concealed in eight trials. The clinicians managing the acupuncture and placebo acupuncture treatments were not blinded in any of the trials. One clearly outlying trial (70 patients) was excluded. A small difference was found between acupuncture and placebo acupuncture: standardised mean difference –0.17 (95% confidence interval –0.26 to –0.08), corresponding to 4 mm (2 mm to 6 mm) on a 100 mm visual analogue scale. No statistically significant heterogeneity was present (P=0.10, I2=36%). A moderate difference was found between placebo acupuncture and no acupuncture: standardised mean difference –0.42 (–0.60 to –0.23). However, considerable heterogeneity (P<0.001, I2=66%) was also found, as large trials reported both small and large effects of placebo. No association was detected between the type of placebo acupuncture and the effect of acupuncture (P=0.60).

Conclusions A small analgesic effect of acupuncture was found, which seems to lack clinical relevance and cannot be clearly distinguished from bias. Whether needling at acupuncture points, or at any site, reduces pain independently of the psychological impact of the treatment ritual is unclear. read more...

<snip>

[TZ]

2. Hello bluedawg12

Welcome to the world of big Pharma shills and narrow minded skeptics..;)
And that is a very interesting article...It pretty much sums up the research that I have heard about over the years that acupuncture is a valid technique but whats great about it, is it illustrates the actual science behind it and not the woo-woo that is claimed to be the reason for it to work.
Its enjoyable to see actual scientific evaluation of something instead of anadoctal evidence or it works because the ancient chinese say it works standards of evaluation.
:hi:

[bluedawg12]

3. Thank you TZ!

Thank you for the kind welcome! :P

This really does look like there are some interesting discussion topics going on here. It looks like a lot of fun. I do love sniffing around the inter net for articles and I think I can learn a lot here.

My thought about the acupuncture article is that it raises some interesting questions about the methodology of some of the published reports. I just don't know how you would create a sham placebo acupuncture?

You know the gold standard is the prospective double-blind study format. However, I can already see a problem if the "control" group isn't getting any needling, then, there isn't much of a control group. Also, the Cochran group report suggests that at least a single blind study be attempted, where the person doing the acupuncture is not aware that they are part of a research study.

This Cochran group is pretty well respected, all they do is meta-analysis, or literature reviews, as far as I know they don't actually do bench work, or primary research.

I got in a discussion based on the Cochran Groups findings about mammography and that was the only time (so far) I found their work come under criticism. That was back in another forum and the debate ( a little OT I realize) was about mammography and it's diagnostic and therapeutic value. There it wasn't big pharma, it was big mammography companies. :eyes:

In case your interested, it was a pretty interesting running discussion for about 4-5 replies.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=221&topic_id=122282&mesg_id=122501

Anyway, it does sound like great fun to look at all claims skeptically and to see if they follow valid scientific methods or not.

:hi:

[mr blur]

4. Welcome - but you need to show this every time you come in:

[bluedawg12]

5. OMG! I won't leave my vitrual home without it!

Thank you mr blur! Great graphic. I may print it and try and buy gas with it today. :evilgrin:
:rofl:

I see in the logo, a bunny-keeper studying scientists? :P

[Heddi]

6. Hey where's my card

sheesh...what's a girl around here gotta do.....

[mr blur]

7. It was sent out weeks ago -

you must have been out of the country.

[Heddi]

8. Oh I bet the ORBES!! ate my mail

they always do. When souls are lacking, they always go for the mail. I wish they'd eat the poo out of the catbox, that would be more helpful. Fucking orbes!!111! I'm series!

[bluedawg12]

10. ....

:rofl:

"Orb backscatter has been broadly interpreted as a highly variable range of paranormal phenomenon without verifiable causation — including as otherwise invisible spirits, auras, angels, ghosts, energy fields, psychoenergetic artifacts, energy balls. However, they are nothing at all like that, just artifacts of photography." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orb_(paranormal)


Dust Orb


Close up orb, showing purple fringing and the cat's eye effect
...........

http://paranormal.about.com/od/ghosthuntinggeninfo/a/aa112706.htm
Enough with the Orbs Already
Its time to drop them as paranormal evidence
By Stephen Wagner,

Countless experiments have now been conducted showing that dusty areas do produce orbs in flash photographs. (See The Truth About Orbs and Orbs and Artifacts among many other web articles for the technical details.) Small insects, rain, snow, pollen and other airborne particulates can also produce them. These experiments were designed to show that these airborne elements can be the cause of orbs and may not necessarily be ghost phenomena.

I applaud these efforts, but the essential question, it seems to me, is: How did orbs in photographs become associated with ghost phenomena in the first place? In other words, why do they even need to be disproved? Yes, anomalous white spots occasionally appear in photos... How do we suddenly make the great leap to say that they are spirit energy? That’s quite a leap. And an erroneous one, in my estimation.

Paranormal assumption

I suspect this is how it came about.

Most people do not take photographs in very dark locations, either indoors or outdoors. The people who do this on a regular basis, however, are ghost hunters. Skulking around abandoned buildings and cemeteries at night with their digital cameras, you will hear them announce “Flash” (to warn fellow ghost hunters) as they snap dozens of pictures.

Of course, they did not see any luminous orbs of light with their naked eyes when they took the pictures, but there in many of the photos – plain as day against the relatively dark background – are brightly glowing orbs. The ghost hunters are in a possibly haunted location… the orbs were invisible to the eye… yet they show up in the photos… they must be something paranormal, they conclude. They must be spirit energy.

I belong to a ghost hunting group, so I know how eager members are to find evidence of a haunting. Seeing that unexpected orb in a photo gets them excited. “Proof!”

..............


A single orb in the center of the photo, at the person's knee level

:wow:
:evilgrin:

[Heddi]

11. OMG! Serious there was an ORBE! trying to get me preg. at HELLoween

I'm series!

here's the phonographtic proof of the pudding!:

<img src=>

Look at it as it is crawling so ORBE!like towards my varhnena and is trying to impreg. me with ORBE BABBYS! omg! wtf! lol!

I was like "Orbe! get out of my Vahina and! get out of my life! Be Gone!" and vwa-la it was gone. But I'm still Impreg. with Orbe Babbys. OMG! WTF! LOL! and unfort. you cannot go after ORBES! in Court for Child Supp. bc ORBES arn't persons but they are old souls. NON SCENCE!

[bluedawg12]

12. They're not just old souls

they're dirty old souls! :evilgrin:

Congrats I guess. Octa-ORBES?

[Heddi]

14. OMG! WTF LOL I am *so* not Octomom

My uterus still has that new car smell. Sheesh.

They are dirty old souls, those ORBES!!!omg. wtf. lol. I have had some harried esperiensas with those ORBES! Them and the Entytytes that envelope my chakra are not to be played with. Playing with only gets them in a lather. I'm so UPSET! that I am starting to use NONSENSICAL use of CAPS!!and various, punctuation and abbrev. that make no sense&&&*

I'm so much IN A LATHER that I don't even KNOW what I'm TYPING it's like WORD VOMIT omg wtf lol

[bluedawg12]

18. Well, you've come to the right group!

Old souls, small insects, rain, snow, pollen and other airborne particulates can also can also mean something more, someting special, life is NOT all about proving the null hyopthesis! :puffpiece:

Is it?:evilfrown:

I mean can you prove a negative? If you prove a negative then it's a positive!!11!# :dilemma:

We do it for the ORBES! Think of the ORBES!:tinfoilhat:

Brought to you by: Itty Bitteh Empiricism Committeh.org :evilgrin:






edited for the letter "I", again. :eyes:

[beam me up scottie]

9. Oh, can I get a new one too, please?

The yak ate mine.

Really.

[mr blur]

24. Of course -

[beam me up scottie]

35. Thank you, mr blur, *sniff* I feel so special now...

[bluedawg12]

36. ...

CTD. :rofl:

[trotsky]

15. mr blur, I believe I began my membership before cards were invented.

I would be honored if you'd print one up for me. :)

[mr blur]

23. My pleasure:

[trotsky]

25. Bwah ha ha, I love it!

Thanks!

[Silent3]

27. Hey, I gotta git me one of those there cards too.

I own rabbits (no yak yet, but owning one would probably be sacrilegious anyway), so I have at least two reasons to need a card.

[mr blur]

29. No other reason needed:

[Silent3]

40. Thanks

I'll present the card to our rabbits tonight so they'll understand why I need to light their cages on fire. Hopefully they'll take the hint and leave before the fires start. I think our rabbits know the importance of this, that we can't let the terrorists win.

[lizerdbits]

28. May I have one as well?

Pretty please?

[mr blur]

30. Of course -

[lizerdbits]

34. Awesome, thanks!

I'm going to put it on my fridge.

[TZ]

41. Hey what about me?

I thought I was teh original Big Pharma Shill and certified child poisoner...

[mr blur]

43. Sorry, how could I have forgotten?

[TZ]

46. OMG...

You rock, Mr. Blur! :rofl:

[moggie]

54. Science whore?

Umm... how much do you charge to talk dirty about PCR procedure?

*breathes heavily*

[LeftishBrit]

31. Great card! I want one too!

[mr blur]

38. OK -

[LeftishBrit]

53. ROFL - thank you very much - that is great!

It looks so professional! Maybe you should get a job making ID cards for the government's proposed compulsory ID scheme, and then of course sabotage them!

[uppityperson]

37. Those are so nice. Would you have another lying around for me?

Stridently held opinion based on pseudoscience but I'm right, sort of one?

[mr blur]

39. OK

[uppityperson]

42. Excellent! Thank you very much! rofl eom

[Anarcho-Socialist]

44. Oh, may I have mine too please sir? n/t

[mr blur]

47. Yep

[Anarcho-Socialist]

50. Oh nice!

Thanks!

[beam me up scottie]

13. Welcome, friend!

We're seriously warped but really sweet once you get to know us.



You don't need permission, silly, I've seen your posts in GD, you will definitely fit in here.

[bluedawg12]

19. Thank you for the warm welcome!

Love the LOL cat!

"Seriously warped" rocks,too! :evilgrin:

[trotsky]

16. Welcome, bluedawg12.

Be warned, we are dangerous here. We demand things like evidence and reason before we'll accept something.

[Heddi]

17. Hah! Not me

I demand figs and talcum powder.

[bluedawg12]

21. And so it shall be...

[bluedawg12]

20. Thank you trotsky! :)

Evidence and reason!??

I misread the title: I thought it was the empiricism and wild speculation anti-science forum? :P


p.s.

Just listening to Charlie Rose and the President of Princeton talking about the new emphasis on science in the post-shrub era. Can you imagine, she even said Darwin looks even better after 150 years! Shocking! :)

[uriel1972]

22. welcome:)

I mostly lurk here but I put in my two cents here and there.I've never formally joined but then again no-one ... ahem none of the residents have told me to get lost, so I stick around. :P

Be prepared to get called all sorts of things when you express anything other than lockstep belief with whatever wobbly notion certain persons come up with.

Uriel
Proud Associate-Member ModernMediceneINC.

[bluedawg12]

26. Thank you for the warm welcome, uriel1972

I don't mind being called all sorts of things-- I might even be some of those things! :evilgrin:

Seriously, it does sound like a fun group who enjoys hashing out ideas and it sure sounds as if there are some smart people here.

Any topic can be the nidus for learning, so I can make the best of most discussions. :)

Thanks again.

[LeftishBrit]

32. Welcome to the dark side!

We are the 'worshippers at the altar of reductionist science'. Well, that's when we're not mercenary shills!

[bluedawg12]

33. I feel right at home!

:evilgrin:

:hi:

[Anarcho-Socialist]

45. It's nice to see other denizens of Bohemian Grove around here

:hi:

[beam me up scottie]

48. How have you been?

:hug:

[Anarcho-Socialist]

49. Good thanks!

It's good to see you around here my good pal. I hope you've been keeping well! :hug:

[TZ]

51. Off topic but

I miss your old sig picture..I thought that was the best....

[beam me up scottie]

52. I've missed you.

And ditto what Sue said, bring back the old avatar. :)