a typical issue that might cause division

[Kali]

due to lack of understanding and extrememly divergent perspectives.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1403452

[scarletwoman]

1. I see your point about the division.

And I understand the viewpoint you expressed in that thread as well.

It's interesting, in a way that thread is almost a textbook example of urban liberalism butting up against rural pragmatism.

Is it any wonder that Dems have lost the rural vote? (rhetorical question)

sw

[Kali]

2. yeah, I see the divide EVERY day

and yet I also see the lies and deception bush and co are pulling and I just DON"T understand why my usually savy neighbors don't! How can they "not trust" big government when the dems are in power, but fall for every line of crap these guys spew out?

[Meritaten1]

3. Yes

Many people of divergent points of view oppose the change to this bill that was made by the Republican senator overseeing the appropriations budget.

Some people who think this amendment is inhumane and was not enacted in accordance with a reasonable opportunity for public debate (I'm one of them) are alarmed now because some letter writers have posted soapbox forums at a Republican letter writing website asking people to contact the White House to correct this situation. Some of the soapboxes even want to give **Bush a line item veto power over the budget, which was unconstitutional, I thought, previously. See http://www.congress.org (a Republican media contacting site)"Soapbox" sections.

Given his lack of a genuine humanitarian record on so many issues, why would they do this? Republicans control both houses of Congress and the Appropriations committees, so would the Legislative branch really need to make such a drastic change in our system of checks and balances to undo this amendment? Couldn't they just convene and change the legislation?

I had reservations about even making this post because it would be tragic if opposition to this amendment resulted in changing checks and balances in this way, in my opinion.

It seems like a classic example of dividing people over an emotional topic to consolidate executive powers.

[greendeerslayer]

4. I steered clear of this the first time but...

...I'll get into it here. I'm an organic farmer who is involved in the equine buisness and I've been around horses all my life. I'm also a leftist, (not a liberal), and read deeply in environmental studies and the new and exciting field of historical ecology. I enjoy horses and have owned many. I have my hands on equines every day.I own a horse that was adopted from the BLM. But I don't have any real problem with culling these horses. These horses compete with elk and mule deer and antelope for forage and as a hardcore green I'd rather have the natural animals on the range instead of horses. Horses are an invasive specis in n. america and they do disturb the ecosystem.

[slowroll]

5. Ditto, entirely.

I thought about trying to post on the original thread but knew I'd get shouted down for it. People just don't get it, too disconnected from the soil.

I was thinking about getting one of these horses from BLM, but I don't know about the time investment to break them. Hell, I even know some of the people involved with the adoption program out here. Maybe a couple years down the road.

[happyslug]

6. Horses- invasive or re-introduced?

Remember under present theory on the evolution of the Horse, it evolved in NORTH AMERICA and than migrated to the Old World at the same time the Ancestors of today's Native Americans were migrating into the Americans.

With the introduction of the Ancestors of today's Native Americans into North America, several animals died out. The Camel, the Horse, the Mammoth, the Mastodon, the Giant Ground Sloth among others. There is a debate on what cause the disappearance of these creatures, the majority opinion being the Native Americans killed them off, with a minority opinion blaming the gradual change in the Climate. Given that Wild Horses have survived so long after being re-introduced during the 1700s I lean to the Native Americans killing them off but the change in the environment (which includes the introduction of Humans into North America Environment) was a factor.

But that brings me to the point I am making, the HORSE WAS NATIVE TILL 10,000 years ago. That is a blink in the eye of evolution. It evolved in an area like the Modern American South West. Many other Creatures in the same Eco-system evolved with the horse being in the Eco-system (Including almost all of the native game animals "threatened" by these wild horses). The horse is NOT a creature that the rest of the Eco-system had never had to address (like the introduction of the Chestnut Blight did to the Native American Chestnut Trees which has lead to the Chestnut tree very near extinction in the Forests of Eastern North America). The Horse is a Creature the Eco-system can handle.

Thus the Horse should NOT be viewed as an "Invasive Creature" but a restored one. I am for hunting them for there is no way you are going to see the wide spread introduction of Wolves into the same Eco-system. Thus some sort of predator has to be used and that is the Human Hunter, for it is only the Human Hunter who we can ever really control as to what creature he hunts and where. Wolves, Coyotes and Pumas will go after what is easiest for them and if that is someone's cattle such predators will do so. The Horse and its competitors among the wild creatures of its Eco-System evolved with Predators, predators that we can NOT re-introduce. Some thing has to do the job of Predator and that leaves the Human Hunter.

Thus while I can Not say the wild horse is an invasive species, I also see that the population of the wild horse must be kept in check and thus culls like this are often needed.



For some more on the Disappearance of the Mega-fauna:
http://www.bagheera.com/inthewild/ext_woollym.htm

[Kali]

7. what I find interesting

is the dichotomy of attitude towards horses and cattle. Pretty horsies are much more "acceptable" than "greedy rancher"-controled cattle.

And agree with you about predators. One key to behavior-influenced soil disturbance is packhunting predators.