On Faith: Guest Voices: Why I Believe

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

I posted this article, which is one of a series, in R/T, and got one answer from believers and the rest from atheists. I'd really like a discussion of the points mentioned by believers, and invite you to go there and read the post. If you don't feel comfortable posting in R/T, but have comments, please post them here.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=214&topic_id=144639&mesg_id=144639

I'm trying to make R/T more welcoming for believers by posting such material there.

[theredpen]

1. I'll just say this...

When I try to see the world through strictly rationalist, materialist eyes, it's like hiking through a picturesque mountain range with my head completely wrapped in a blanket.

[DemBones DemBones]

2. Very well put. nt

[DemBones DemBones]

3. I'll have to wait until tomorrow on this

but will check it out then.

The R/T forum would be much better everyone were forbidden from making nasty comments about religion or about atheism.

It would be great if the mods would delete any post in R/T that's simply an attack on another person's belief or their agnosticism or atheism. It's impossible to have real discussions because of the attack posts.

Wonder if Skinner would consider making that change?

[skater314159]

6. Sounds like we mebbe we can get a movement going...

... I know it SOUP and other faith threads, the feeling is mutual.

Mebbe we should organise a petition of the mods?

Peace! :hippie:

[theredpen]

7. I'd like to see R/T go away...

...but then those posts would just clutter up GD.

[DemBones DemBones]

9. R/T was begun to get posts about religion out of GD but

it has not been entirely successful. I don't have a problem with people being agnostic or atheistic and wouldn't mind debating with a fair-minded atheist such as Az.

If Skinner won't agree to tighten up the rules in R/T as he did years ago in I/P, then our best course would be to just boycott R/T.

If people want to argue and no one argues back, they won't have much fun, will they?

(I/P is Israel/Palestine. It's been against DU rules for years to even mention Israel in any other forum unless it's related to US-Israel relations. Just FYI since you're relatively new here.)

[elshiva]

4. Religion for me is a crutch that I do need.

I do not like posting in R/T because I am very sensitive. Religion provides me with a community that does not judge me on the way I look. Everywhere I go I am judged because I am a fat lady, but in church they respect me as a human. Whenever people made fun of me, I remember that God loves me and my church loves me.

[Name removed]

5. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[elshiva]

8. Thank you, skater314159.

What about the Anglican Franciscan nuns in San Francisco who help out the AIDS patients? Are they deluded? Aren't they giving a community and a spiritual solace that the hospital can't give?

PEACE!

[JNelson6563]

12. Interesting comments

I enjoy reading this forum though I am an atheist. I'm one of those very rare creatures who is a former Catholic, no longer a believer and have no bad feelings whatever toward the Church. My experiences were all positive and I especially loved my years at the local Catholic school.

Anyhow, your comments re: the R/T forum - I agree with what you say. For the life of me I cannot understand the appeal of arguing religion in the R/T forum. No one is ever going to be persuaded to change their view so it seems to me a monumental waste of time and effort. I believe the only time I've had posts in that forum is when the thread was begun in GD and subsequently moved to R/T.

Julie

[rug]

13. I'm curious. What led you from Catholicism to atheism?

[JNelson6563]

14. It was happenstance, really.

For years I have studied history. A large portion of that time was spent on the period known as the "reformation". I really got sucked into investigating the differences and hairsplitting etc. that went on between the sects.

I finally realized the answers I wanted were not to be found in that sort of investigation but in a thorough reading of the bible and a strict application of objectivity while doing this reading. I found that no matter what version of the bible one read the stories were basically the same, in spite of the word change here and there. I found what I read there with my own eyes to be some of the least enlightened stuff imaginable. Out of respect to the readers of this forum I will not elaborate.

I could not reconcile what I dearly wanted to believe with what I saw with my own eyes. This whole thought/discovery process took several years and was gradual.

As I stated before it had nothing to do with dissatisfaction with the RCC, no bad experiences to report or anything like that. I suppose that is why I have a sympathetic view toward Catholics. I marvel that other branches of Christianity still feel compelled to attack Catholics when I know from first hand experience that Catholics are the least likely to be in-your-face about religion. Not long ago there was a serious Catholic bashing post in GD and I hit alert and wrote "I sure feel sorry for the Catholic DUers" and the next thing I knew the thread was gone. Not just locked but gone entirely.

Someone I spoke to recently, a lifelong Catholic BTW, told me that whether my views of God have changed or not there is a part of me that will remain Catholic til the end. I believe he was right. :-)

Cheers,
Julie

[rug]

15. Thanks for answering.

Personally I'm unconfortable in basing my basic belief on a book or its interprestations. What keeps me Catholic is the whole Incarnation through Crucifixion through Resurrection message. To me it's the hinge on which the Bible moves. Anyway, thanks again for your own experience.

[DemBones DemBones]

10. I know what you mean.

A lot of thin folks who criticize fat people are in for a big surprise as they age and their metabolism slows.

I'm glad you have a church where people are concerned about the size of your heart, not the size of your body. God does not care what we look like but how we act.

Anyone who judges overweight people is likely insecure, afraid they'll be overweight some day. Don't let them bother you, they're not worthy of your friendship.

:hug:

[elshiva]

11. "Do not judge by appearances..." John 7:24

[133724]

16. I liked this paragraph in the article:

At the center of faith is a mystery beyond understanding, which is to say, beyond expression. Mystics worldwide and all across time recommend silence as the best route to that mystery. “Be still and know that I am God.” I believe that: meditation, even by an amateur like me, is immeasurably helpful there, as well as yielding all kinds of side-benefits, like better blood pressure and clearer thinking. However, communicating in words about what is revealed in silence is the province of poets and prophets.

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/guestvoices/2007/07/waterston.html

I have enjoyed reading some of the stories about the ascetic life and visions of the Desert Fathers; and more recently Thomas Keating.

My understanding of meditation is that is it one of a very few methods that we have the ability to use sanctify ourselves. You see I believe in a living God, one who is deeply involved in the process of our sanctification. Luther said it best in his treaties on baptism. We must daily drown the Old Adam and Daily raise up the New Adam. In other words, we must have a healthy skepticism about our life, our actions. and our beliefs. The message of the cross is that we must daily die to our old selves and be resurrected to our new selves.

ps I am a lutheran...