I need Electrical assistance

[quakerboy]

Here's the scenario... just moved into a condo.

So, downstairs is the kitchen, dining area, a bathroom and a living room. Today, my wife plugged in the vacuum for the first time since moving in. And after a few moments the living room stopped working. All three outlets, the overhead light, and the light right outside the front door. I figured it tripped the breaker, but none of them had flipped. Waited a bit, since the washing machine was in mid run, then flipped all the breakers off and back on. Everything is still stone dead. Which is a problem, since that's where my computer and all related things are. At the moment I am running a daisy chain of power strips from the bathroom over so that I can be here and looking for some idea. There are 4 breakers labeled "lights and outlets". No clue which one it is, although 2 seem to be for upstairs. But none of them are doing anything for the dead outlets.

I dunno if it matters, but the place was built in 71 and converted from apartments to condo's in 07.

What the heck is going on here?

[amerikat]

1. Maybe a gfi outlet tripped.

Gfi outlets can be reset fight on the outlet.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

2. I too would guess it's a GFCI trip.

Keep in mind the plug or plugs/fixtures may be protected by a GFCI somewhere up stream - perhaps in another room. The plug or fixtures could be tied in to the "load" side of the GFCI. This affords GFI protection to the down-stream outlet/fixtures.

I would reset all the GFCI outlets by pressing test then reset.

This is less common but there could be a "dead front" GFI located somewhere that is not actually an outlet. A "dead front" GFCI....basically all it is is a gfci without the plug.

Other than that you may have a bad breaker. You may have to isolate which breaker is bad by process of elimination and change it out.

[quakerboy]

3. There are 3 GFCI

2 bath and one kitchen. All three are working properly, none tripped. In fact, the outlet in the bathroom that I am having to use the power strips to get to is the closest and most likely culprit. And seeing as its making my computer go, its not that one. so I do not think its that.

A dead front: never heard of it, interesting to know, but looking at the overall construction and way things were done here, I would guess they weren't putting any extra money into anything not legally required of them.

As to breaker, I am guessing at best to figure out which breaker this is on. There are 4 that were all labled "lights and plugs". I have added some detail to the labels, via trial. #9 goes to upstairs bath, which is working. #10 goes to bedrooms, and is working. #11 goes to the dining room, and is working. #12 goes to the kitchen, and is working. If I had wired it, the living room would share the circuit with the dining area, due to proximity, and to wanting the kitchen to be on its own circuit as it is likely to have higher usage, but at the moment no way to check it.

Unless my very old high school electrical class knowledge betrays me, the fact that each breaker goes to some area of the house that is currently working should eliminates that as the problem.

I just got a call back from a contractor that I had do some wall work for me. He has been good as gold for every project so far. He suggested that it was probably a loose wire, and that the added load of the vacuum was just enough to pop it out of touch at an outlet. He suggested that I check all of those before getting too freaked out.

Seeing as I personally replaced every outlet in the place when I moved in, I don't want to believe this is the answer. But then Ive met me, so I think my next step is to check the three outlets involved. It scares me to mess with them while they are live, but I am not sure which breaker goes to this room. I suppose it wouldn't be the first time Ive been zapped, and it ain't killed me yet.

[Wash. state Desk Jet]

5. You can buy a electrical tester

for about five bucks. It is a little plug in with 3 lights on it. That tester will tell you if yer plug is wired wrong,say reverse,or bad ground or no ground ,and if all lights go on ,it is wired correctly. Your problem is simple, it is either a bad breaker or a bad connection . wired in series no doubt the bad connection is at a plug.
In the room find the end of the run plug, than try to figure where the begin of the run is. Pull all the plugs out and use yer wiggy to test for power. If nothing works -your problem is no doubt at the beginning of the run. You can also check the circuit breaker line out for power,if power leaves the circuit breaker you go to the first plug.
If you changed all the plugs ,one of those testers is handy to have.

Simple, bad breaker or bad connection. Bad connection- at the plugs or in a junction box. Buy yerself a basic electrical book at most any builders supply ,home depot what have you. Better to have the book than it is to try to remember some shop class instructors words of a lesson long ago ! $10.00 you can spare it.

If you really don't know how to find which breaker the room is on, than shut off all 15 and 20 amp. breakers when you check your connections. Get a book.

[quakerboy]

7. I have one of those.

I even splurged and got the GFCI tester version. It came in handy when I replaced all the outlets.

That said, there's one outlet upstairs that I cannot seem to figure out. The home inspector said it was wired backwards. The tester said something different(something about the neutral, as I recall), and online reading leads me to think it may be a broken wire somewhere. I dunno.

Ive also got books. More than I can handle. My dad collects them, and just dumped a bunch of home repair/maintanance manuals on me. I just don't even know where to start.

[quakerboy]

4. Updated info

Turns out one of the 3 outlets is on the bathroom circuit, so I am now able to close the bathroom door while leaving my computer turned on. Progress!!

Actually, I pulled the other 2 outlets. Both appeared to be firmly seated, and the wires in each read as dead to my tester. I went over to the switch. Its two switches side by side. One goes to the light outside the front door, the other to the overhead lights. The outside switch measured 32 volts.. That didn't seem right. I made sure the wires were firmly seated, then unscrewed the second. It read 121, which is what i have gotten from all the others. Then I noticed that a fan plugged into one of the previously dead outlets was running.. Yay fixed. Except that switch had the wires screwed into place, not inserted into the holes. And they were firmly screwed in, so it couldn't be that I left a wire loose on that switch.

Some experimentation with the breakers shows that the kitchen lights are linked to the downstairs bath and the living room. Odd, but whatever, at least now I know which circuit breaker I am dealing with to not get zapped. But when I flip it back on, I hear a pop from the light switch. And everything is dead again. I walk over, and with it live, I wiggle the outlet. on, pop, spark off. A second time, same thing.

Its a mess of wires in there, and they are all black. And I cannot use the computer while the breaker is turned off. So I am taking a break and thinking about my strategy in dealing with this. I hate electrical work. But at least the problem is localized to one particular nest of wires now. I think its coming from within one of those screw on caps that covers a wire joining. I have no clue what the proper name for those is. I suppose the next step is to pull that off, reseat the wires, and screw it back on.

[Wash. state Desk Jet]

6. wire nuts- get a book !

Thats the junction box. Weak connection.

[Wash. state Desk Jet]

8. if your tester said something about neutral

that would or could mean neutral and hot reverse which is wired backward. Why wasn't that corrected ?
a plug is gold screws black wire right,and silver screws white wire left, yer ground hole points down.Neutral is return line white back to neutral bus bar at the box.That is in standard 12/2 house wiring .Of course yer copper ground to the green screw on the same side as yer neutral,or the silver screws which should be left as you face the receptacle. See, black hot sending,net rural return to neutral bus bar at the box.ground to ground bus bar at the box. Ground and neutral bus bar one behind the other, get it ? Ground and neutral on same side-left silver screws and one green.The third hole or ground points down . Wired backward means backward or hot neutral reverse. As it says on yer gfi tester.Maybe just two of the four wires are reversed. Unless you six of them in there !

Lets say you replaced fifty plugs in a day, what are the odds you will catch yerself hooking up one or two reverse?
You run across 20 stop signs in secession, what are the odds you will black out one?
if you fallow up with your tester there will be no mistakes. Of course you look it over before you push the plug back in. In electrical talk thats like measure twice,cut once. You don't want to have to go back and do it again.

You mentioned a converted condo building.That also brings to question commercial wiring-bit of a different color code on the wires. So are those wires black -white and copper ground in standard 12/2 house wiring with ground., or black red white and copper ground in 12/3 with ground? Or is there purple and gray yellow so fourth such as in commercial wiring ? Did you go and buy the basic electricity book at home depot I told you to get? It is simple to read and has color illustrated pictures ,between $10.00 and $15.00 dollars.

[quakerboy]

9. I have not had a chance to go buy anything today

Seeing as I spent the day putting up one of those sheet metal sheds for a relative. Now I hurt.

The Inspector said they were reversed. The bank wasn't doing anything but sell, no repairs at all. And I have had higher priorities than that outlet. I just ran up and plugged the tester in. The lights read "open neutral"

When I replaced all the outlets, I forgot that that one was not right, so I just wired it exactly as it had been before. Was on my own, with limited time, and the breakers down a set of stairs, so I didn't notice till later.

I'm not sure what the numbers mean, but the wires are black and white, with a copper ground. Nothing more fancy than that. What do the numbers designate? I find the combinations of wires interesting. Different plugs had anywhere from 2 to 5 wires going to them.


In the mean time, I seem to have fixed the downstairs. When I got home, I moved the nest of wires, pulled out the wire grouping in question(4 black all wound together), pulled off the wire nut. They all seemed to be touching and reasonably stuck together, so I tightened that thing back on, and now everything is working. I think it had just come a hair unscrewed, so that one wire was not perfectly placed.

On to the next challenge of this place. So far, both toilets had to be fixed, 2 walls had to be removed, dishwasher leaked, the Washer didn't spin, and now this electrical fun. Maybe sometime this week, with some good leads, I can finally sort out the outlet upstairs. And after that, I will just have to await the next issue with baited breath. Hopefully it will be a while, cause I am tapped out after the unexpected washer and dishwasher issues. The tiles at the entry way(wow, doesn't that sound deceivingly grandiose) need to be replaced, all cracked, but for now a rug will have to suffice, as that is a cosmetic, noncritical issue.

[Wash. state Desk Jet]

10. Unless you have more than one circuit going into the plug,

you will have one hot going in the others are going out to feed other locations. The only other exception is more than one circuit or hot lead going in. If thats the case than there is a copper strap what connects the two receptacles together. on the hot side =gold you break that connection and by doing so,the top plug is wired into one circuit and the bottom another. The rest of the wires if there are any ,feed other locations-light,plugs so fourth.

But for now, two circuits going into a plug is over yer head until you get the book.In fact that might be a little advanced.

When you disconnect all wires ,the first thing you do is find the hot lead. You shut off the breaker disconnect the wires,cap those off with wire nuts ,for a single wire 12 gage the yellow caps work ,when joining wires you use red.
After the wires are capped, and you might make yerself a diagram since you don't already know. Than turn the breaker on and return with wiggy. The wiggy simply tells yer 220 or 110. you find the hot wire. That is the feed in.
Now unless the copper strap is broken between the the top and bottom plug, there is only one hot in.When there are 4 wires plus ground, one hot in,and the other two are going out-out to feed or supply another outlet-thats called series wiring. Could feed a light switch than from switch to light or fan .Five wires is out going to two places.Of course yer wondering where is the other white wire. {?} hua ? Get a book.

It is always better to know than it is to think that you know.

Now, since yer building was built ,codes have changed about those plugs. You can no longer buy the plugs with all the holes in the back to except 12 gage wire,only 14 gage. So if it's 12 gage,than you buy a special plug with screws-gold and silver ! With that plug you can wire in 6 wires ! Or 5 ! See, black -gold screws-neutral-silver screws ,copper ground-green screw. Now, the book will show yer a illustrated picture of it.

That book is not electrical wiring projects fer dummies. Those books are designed fer do it yer selfers home repair . You buy that book at yer local builders supply,like home depot. The illustrated color pictures assist in getting yer you to view it.Like try'en to recall what yer old shop teacher was say'en why back when ! you didn't really know than and you don't know now, look at it that way. That is just what confuses people, trying to envision it, view it in their minds eye.

The pictures are there so that you don't confuse yerself. I won't go into lousy writers those cooperations hire to write out direction easy enough fer most people to understand. That would be a whole different project. Don't have time ! But in those do it yer selfer books, the words and the pictures show you how to do it and what not to do.

[Stinky The Clown]

11. Given that construction date, I'm going to make a worst case guess: Aluminum Wire

It has been used for a long time, but the installations in the mid 60s to early/mid 70s were particularly problematic. Connections failed. The wire even failed in the middle of a run. What you're facing sounds like it could be failed aluminum wiring.

If you can, look inside an outlet box or switch to see what the wire is made of. If you're unsure, call an electrician. If you find aluminum, call an electrician. If you can't find out why the power failed, call an electrician.

If I were you, I'd call an electrician.

[quakerboy]

12. Thanks for the thought

Fortunately, not Al wire. Copper. As best I can tell, there was a wire nut that was not seated correctly, and the extra load of the vacuum on that circuit created just enough heat/energy to break that connection and cause the problem. 4 wires together, one shorter than the rest. I am guessing that was the hot line in from the panel, being connected to all the other parts of the circuit(2 switches and the outlets). Once I pulled the wire nut, and reseated it more firmly, everything works the way its supposed to.

Thanks for that thought though. I would like to think I would have caught Aluminum wire before we took the place, but sometimes I miss the obvious.