Harsh beauty standards and equating beauty with goodness

[chicaloca]

OK, so am I the only one who's sick of being confronted every damn place I go with images of beautiful, thin, white, young models with long, thick flowing hair, clear skin and large breasts? I don't even watch TV, I try to closely monitor the movies I watch, and I absolutely do not buy fashion magazines. Yet I still can't escape messages everywhere that my entire body is ugly, including my large breasts because, as non-silicone-breasts, they don't stand at attention and the nipples are too big. I see this shit on advertisements, on newsstands, in the bedrooms of guys who are allegedly my friends, in newspapers, etc. In all reality, I'm probably a lot closer to meeting these standards than the majority of the female population because I'm thin, young, "well-endowed," I have long legs, big eyes, full lips, a small nose, and blah blah blah. Despite that, I still find myself feeling like complete shit most times when I look in the mirror, and I know if I'm having problems, a lot of other women must be as well.

I'm also bloody sick of having to elaborately make myself up before I go out anywhere, because I know none of my guy friends have to do this. Of course, they're also the first ones to say that the beauty standards women are held up to aren't unfair, and if I think so I'm just plain crazy (of course, men always have to bring conversations about women's equality back to a crazy woman). When I get into it with guy friends over their promotion of fascist beauty standards, usually resulting from some stupid movie they made me watch or giant poster displayed on the wall, the favored method of argument seems to be that since I'm not ugly, I shouldn't be bothered. Oh, right then. I'll just let the rest of my sisters burn in hell while I enjoy Most Favored Female status -- that is, until a prettier woman walks in the room and I become invisible again.

They also seem horrified that I could think I'm not pretty because, well, that would just mean I'm a terrible person! And then they'd be FRIENDS with a TERRIBLE PERSON! Which then might mean that they're TERRIBLE PEOPLE as well! (Oh, and did I mention that I'm never the one to start these conversations, because I don't like to criticize people's personal choices? Yet I always end up being the evil wench at the end.) Never, ever, in these conversations with my so-called guy friends have I ever heard them say that I just shouldn't let it bother me because beauty is a construct, because it's bullshit and what matters is that I'm a good person. I mean, I understand that men feel they have to tell women they're pretty, but they never couple the chicaloca-is-pretty argument with an argument that beauty doesn't matter, that they're friends with me because they like who I am. Because to them, beauty does matter. If it didn't, they wouldn't have only good-looking female friends. People can say all they want about how women are the ones who enforce horrible beauty standards on each other (like the intellectual midgets in the Lounge) but in all my life, no woman has ever made a disparaging comment about my looks. Men, however, comment on my looks all the time, often negatively, and they further reinforce my self-hatred with their stupid movies and posters and computer backgrounds and talk about "hawt" women. Sure, women police each other over beauty standards, but it's because we know men respond positively to beauty. It's the sad brilliance of patriarchy -- get the oppressed group to self-police so you don't have to do as much work, and then you can blame the problem on them when they try to change things, and they can get to infighting again. And so the cycle goes on and on.

(And before anybody responds, yes, I know the old arguments about how it's getting worse for guys, too, and I also know the one about how it gets easier when you hit your 30s or 40s because you just don't care anymore. Well, it's not half as bad for guys yet, and I've got a long ways to go before I hit my 30s. But even if it were my 30th birthday tomorrow, it still doesn't make it right that younger women have to be put through this miserable hell before they're allowed to have an ounce of self-esteem -- that is, if it's even true that most women experience increased confidence in their 30s. I know my mom didn't, because she's spent most of her life after popping out two babies being berated by my father for not getting back down to her pre-baby weight.)

[Finder]

1. Perhaps their age...

If they are younger guys, and it sounds like they are if they are using words like "hawt", they could be going through the shallow times.lol

They also may be trying to get a rise out of you with some of their comments. I imagine they are not total idiots or you would not have them as friends. One of the drawbacks of being on equal terms in friendship/conversations with males is having to be "one of the boys" and listen to "guy talk", but don't be afraid to speak up. It sounds like you do sometimes but you are still letting it affect your self-esteem.

Women don't give up caring when they turn 30 or 40 but they tend to be more comfortable with themselves and are not competing with dozens of other young women for attention generally.

[chicaloca]

5. no, the "hawt" was my embellishment to highlight their stupidity, LOL

Usually it's more along the lines of "Yeah, she really looked good in that movie," "She's really fine," or, "I saw her in that movie, and I was like, 'DAMN!'" :eyes:

And unfortunately, I don't think my guy friends are trying to get a rise out of me, and it's not just my friends who do it. Here's a smattering of the incidents that have led me to be enraged about this issue:

My ex-boyfriend told me that I needed to go on a diet. I am and was 5'4" and weigh about 120-125 pounds.

When one of my guy friends was at my apartment one day, it was really warm and I was wearing a kind of short shirt. Now, my tummy's not toned and it's not flat, but I figured that shouldn't matter in my own damn apartment among my friends. Well, this friend came up to me, poked me in the belly, and called me the "Pillsbury Dough Girl." In both of these instance -- the ex-boyfriend and the friend -- I got eerily similar responses. I said to them, "I'm not fat." No response. "I'M NOT FAT." Smirk. "ARE YOU SAYING I'M FAT?!?" Shrug. This happened in both cases, with my friend and my boyfriend.

On a bus, when I was standing up, some guy was telling the driver a story about a woman he knew. He then gestured toward me and said, "She looked a lot like this girl here, with her fat legs and all." (And I think he was way too old to be using the term "phat.")

On the light rail, some guy and his approximately 6-year-old son were having a conversation about how weird-looking I am. As I wrote earlier, most of my facial and body features are pretty "normal," whatever that means.

So, frankly, I don't think it's just me being crazy and overly sensitive, which unfortunately is still a reaction I get from a lot of women, even feminists (not picking on you, Finder, but I'm anticipating that this is the direction this thread is going in). Honestly, and I don't know how else I can make everybody here understand this, the pressures on young women today are even worse than they were in the 70s and 80s. I don't tell these stories about my personal experiences because I want consolation; I tell them to illustrate a larger trend, a horrible trend that's going to consume the young women of my generation if we don't do something about it. We're told to focus on our bodies, not our minds; rather than spending money on conferences to further our careers, we spend it on makeup and plastic surgery to enhance our careers. We turn on other women for being too beautiful or not beautiful enough. Seriously, I don't think I worry enough about this issue. I want to fight this trend, somehow, but I don't even know where to begin, and I don't want to wait until hundreds of thousands of girls and women are dying in the streets from anorexia and botched cosmetic surgery.

[OKNancy]

2. I'm older now

( 56) so I'm not as obsessed about it as I once was. As a post-menopausal woman, I'm invisible anyway.

What I do worry about is my 21 year old daughter. She never wears make-up and she wears her hair in a pony-tail. She's a dear liberal girl. She is naturally pretty but has a small bust. ( Her figure is like Paris Hilton's - and I do thank Ms Hilton for not getting implants.. at least one celebrity is keeping their natural body )
My daughter isn't too worried about that, but there is one subject that has come up that worries her: shaving. She refuses to follow the trend and shave you know where. Some of her girl friends were teasing her about it. She is standing her ground, but there is great pressure to conform.

Now, as far as you are concerned...I don't know what to tell you. Everything would sound cliche. I do think you may be worrying too much. If it is any comfort to you I loved my 30's. I felt so good, both physically and mentally.
Be good and kind to your "sisters" and don't let your guy friends rule how you feel.

[chicaloca]

6. But that's another horrible thing our society does....

because of what we expect women to look like. We IGNORE women who are past a certain age, or look like they're past a certain age, as if over half the population has an expiration date. People don't ignore older men to nearly the extent that they ignore older women, which is horrible, because the most amazing people I've met were retired nuns in a convent where my aunt used to live (and I'm not even remotely religious!). I also worry that even when I reach my 30s and am beyond this crap, I'll still bear the emotional scars from hating myself for so long. I feel like I haven't even had a chance to develop my personality or get to know myself because when I talk to people they're either staring at my boobs or my unshaved armpits, and I get so uncomfortable that I can't even form a complete sentence. So then even when I'm in a situation where I'm not being visually dissected, I remember my other experiences and wonder if the person I'm talking to is judging my personality based on my looks, and I clam up. And just for the record, men's treatment of me as a thing to look at has gotten worse in the last few years, coincidentally with the rise of even further objectification of women in the media, i.e. Britney Spears, the Swan, rap videos, etc. In high school, I was actually fairly secure about my looks, even though I weighed a little more and had a haircut that kind of accentuated how thin my hair is.

About your daughter....Wow, I didn't even know that the shaving "there" issue was so big. :( I did it once (for a boyfriend, of course) and it was quite possibly the most painful experience I've willingly put myself through, partially from the actual shaving but mainly from the hair growing back. Girls and women who do it will probably be in pain all the time unless they shave almost every day (or join a nudist colony so they don't have to wear anything that will chafe against the stubble). Also -- and this might be too much information -- it will make that area smell pretty bad. I have no idea why.

[BlueIris]

7. About "the trend," it's fucking stupid. Lots of women don't do that.

And, sometimes, privately, we raise a mental eyebrow at the women who feel the need to, (against their own desires anyway) the men who find that attractive, and the suppression of self-love and interest that goes along with doing that if you don't want to.

Good for your daughter. And of all the things in the world for her friends to tease her about--Jesus Christ. And I thought my (former) friends were insensitive.

[BlueIris]

3. This thread title is great, of couse, but "harsh" beauty standards?

I think "fascist beauty standards" is more accurate. Fascist in the sense of a standard which is completely unattainable and insustainable, completely unreasonable and if carried out to its logical applicative extremes, deadly. I actually own a t-shirt which reads: fuck your fascist beauty standards. It's fun to watch people read that.

[chicaloca]

4. yeah, I own the "fuck your fascist beauty standards" button

and I was thinking of using that phrasing for the subject, but then I remembered that one of my co-workers who's Jewish once said that he gets really sick of people using Holocaust language to further their causes. I know I used the term "fascist" a few times in the text, though, but I don't want to force people to see that language in a subject, as I know it can be really upsetting for some, even if they didn't live through WWII. I might change it to something else, though I don't know what. I tried doing a thesaurus search when I made the thread title, but I didn't come up with anything suitable. If anybody can think of any good alternatives, please let me know!

on edit: crap. It says I can't change the original post anymore.

[BlueIris]

8. Wait, you own the button...

but you still posted about having horrible feelings about yourself when you don't conform to the infamous, ridiculous Mythical Norm? Respectfully, that's--I think you should keep the button. Wear it a lot. Believe it.

Also, while I respect your coworker's right to his feelings--and maybe he was not directing his comment specifically at your possession or display of the button--I have many Jewish friends who've never said word one about my t-shirt and are quite comfortable using the term fascist to describe phenomena other than the Holocaust. It's great that you want to be sensitive to your friend and to others, but it's perfectly reasonable to characterize the Mythical Norm as fascist. I went to college with a lot of ultra-PC, anti-cultural appropriation scholars and students, hypersensitive to the Caucasian androcentrist "theft" of the cultural experiences and icons of non-white, non-American peoples, and no one in five years of life in that environment ever said anything about my shirt. I presume, because, it didn't offend them. I'm not saying your friend's position is wrong. I feel it IS inappropriate to parallel oppression of just anyone in any situation, even a horrible one, to the Jewish people who were victims of the Holocaust, (particularly if it's done in a manipulative way affiliated with generating money and support for a cause) but no one "owns" the term "fascist." And in the context of its use on the t-shirt I wear, I'm not appropriating the cultural experiences of Holocaust survivors for a "cause," and I don't think you are either. Take that from a person who once happily wrote a ten page term paper on what an insensitive, borderline racist asshole David Soto is for writing about Native Americans in first-person in his fiction in poetry though he, himself, is not Native American.

[Finder]

9. Agree

Fascism is not unique to the holocaust(Nazi is)and most Jewish people know the difference.

[chicaloca]

18. I wore the button so much....

that although it was hot pink, it started getting orange spots all over it, probably from the sun, and was just getting hard to read. When I went to Northern Sun to get a new one, they were out, and a woman working there told me they no longer do business with the company that makes the buttons. :( I found another place online that sold them, but I could only contact them through e-mail, and their inbox was full. But if you know of any places that sell them, let me know!

And also, the next time I start a thread about this, I'll use the phrase "fascist beauty standards," which I agree does better express the severity of the situation. Deal? :D

[Hello_Kitty]

10. Oppressive and arbitrary

Both of which are encompassed in fascism. They're oppressive because they place very rigid limits on women AND men with respect to our behavior, how we express ourselves, and what and whom we are allowed to love. What Simone De Beauvoir said so many years ago is still true today. "No man is free to love a fat woman" A man knows that the woman he loves will be subjected to the assessment of every man he comes into contact with and his status will be determined by how closely she resembles the official but ever-changing (hence arbitrary) ideal.

When guys buy into that, and all too many of them do, it severely limits what they perceive as their choices in mates and prevents them from truly enjoying and appreciating the beauty of the women in their lives. They're screwing themselves as much as they are hurting us with these beauty standards IMHO. But it's the one privelege that every guy indisputably has over every woman in our culture. They can use our looks against us when we step out of line. Or even if we don't.

Last week I was sitting in the cafeteria with my male co-workers. It was sort of an informal meeting so the conversation was casual. It's so predictable at this point it's almost laughable: They were talking about fishing, camping, home repair, and various other "guy" things when the subject of the new Dukes of Hazzard movie came up. Of course, that led to the subject of Jessica Simpson, who if you don't know is the latest in a line of interchangeable buxom blonde over-produced pop stars. But these guys salivated over the prospect of seeing her short Daisy Duke shorts.

I tuned most of it out, as always, but I marvelled at how easily manipulated they are to pine after a fake celebrity who wouldn't give any of them the time of day if she met them. Let me make it clear that I wasn't reacting to them in any way. But then one of them HAD to turn to me and make some snide little crack about how I probably didn't want to hear about Jessica Simpson and her hotness. Uhh..gee thanks. Spend several minutes being sexist in my presence and then, though I was politely ignoring you, embarrass me with an insincere (very obviously so) non-apology that lets me know a. you think I don't belong there and b. I'm definitely not in the category of women you think are 'hawt'. That's why I call bullshit when they pretend they don't deliberately use beauty standards to hurt us. Even when they are supposed to like you or be your friend.

[Finder]

11. Seems you interpreted a few things...

To put it into perspective, think of a group of women talking about a popular male actor or performer. If there is a male in group, our discussion is meant in no way to insult him or insinuate anything. Even women tend to bring up the "Daisy Duke shorts" when Simpson is brought up. Again, it comes down to feeling self-conscious not necessarily being targeted or ridiculed. IMO

[Hello_Kitty]

13. Not so fast

Them talking about the subject wasn't bugging me. If you recall, I did say I was ignoring them. It's when one of them deliberately brought me into it, probably because I wasn't acting hurt and upset about it, thus depriving him of the satisfaction of using the beauty myth as a control implement and battering ram.

Also, have you been in the situation where it's a group of woman discussing what men they find attractive and there's only one or a few men present? I have and it's pretty interesting. They get pissed! It's hilarious, really. They'll get visibly agitated and will interject with some petulant comment to the effect that the guy(s) you're talking about are "probably gay" and immediately bring up what women they think are "hawt" even though that has no bearing on what you were talking about. Either way, they are peeved that the women in their midst DARE to pay attention to other men and not cater to their egos.

If you don't believe me, try it sometime. It's a riot and very eye-opening.

[chicaloca]

17. whoa!

I can't believe we have the same stuff about male egos in our posts...I was in the process of writing mine when you posted yours, so I didn't see it beforehand. Just goes to show how true it is that men burst a blood vessel if they even suspect that women ten counties away are discussing any man's attractiveness.

edited because I cant spel

[chicaloca]

14. yeah, but...

Even women tend to bring up the "Daisy Duke shorts" when Simpson is brought up.

That kind of proves that it's worse for women, though, that we'll even discuss other women's bodies like that. You don't see straight guys sexually objectifying other men in the same way women objectify other women. And in my experience, women are a lot more careful about objectifying men when other men are around. I know I don't talk about what guys I find hot when my guy friends are around because I don't want to hurt their feelings. I started being cautious when I was about 16 because one of my guy friends got really upset when my best friend and I were talking about a Brazilian guy we knew who was really nice, and, we thought, really hot. One of my guy friends also used to get mad at two of my female friends when we'd watch Lord of the Rings because they'd swoon over Aragorn and Legolas, to the point where he refused to watch the movies with them anymore. I just don't get why it's okay for guys to verbally dissect every inch of our bodies, but when women show even the slightest sign of objectifying a guy, it's like, OH MY GOD, RED ALERT! MALE EGO ON EDGE!

Another thing (of many) that bothers me about the new Dukes of Hazard movie is that the original Daisy Duke was a brunette, yet Jessica Simpson is a blonde. Now, no offense to blondes here or anything, but it seems to me that this casting decision is more proof of how completely narrow our society's views of beauty have become -- clearly, the original Daisy Duke wasn't pretty enough, so they have to re-cast her as a blonde, the real paragon of beauty. Also, I don't recall her ever wandering around in a bikini the few times I watched the original show with my dad and my brother, yet it seems like a large chunk of the movie is going to feature Jessica Simpson doing just that. Oh, but we're supposed to accept her as a strong, liberated woman because, at some point in the movie, she's going to kick some guy down -- and we get a really great shot of her legs while she's doing it! If this is the fucking liberation women get after spending generations fighting for equality, count me out.

Also, if anybody still doubts my claim that men objectify women more than vice versa, try visiting http://www.desktopia.com/, a site that hosts free wallpapers. The number of wallpapers they offer featuring female models, most of whom are quite scantily clad? 17,248. The number featuring male models? 185. Yes, I know the Internet most likely has more male than female surfers, but the sheer disparity between those numbers is ridiculous.

[smirkymonkey]

12. I completely relate to your post...

It makes me think that what we consider to be "romantic love" is just about externals and therefore worthless (other than in the heat of the moment). Unfortunately, I am straight or this wouldn't bother me so much. And, like you, I recieve plenty of male attention based on my looks even though I don't make any effort to be attractive at all (I am kind of a lazy slob, a no-no in hyper-beauty conscious NYC) and I will be 42 next week.

I am also aware that I am becoming a woman of a certain age, even though I look about 10 years younger. I am acutely aware of the power of youth and beauty, yet I feel I have to let go of something I never even thought I had - even when I had it. It can be traumatizing and I tell myself that I don't want a man who only values a woman for her sexual attractiveness, but I am beginning to think that men with substance are only found in fairy tales. We all go through it, I think, regardless of what our physical attributes may be.

[Hello_Kitty]

15. I never thought I had it either

I look at old photos of myself and think "Wow! I was adorable". Why was I so hard on myself then? Hmm...Maybe because I always around guys, boyfriends included, who rhapsodized about Cindy, Linda, and Naomi. Unfortunately, I came of age in the Era of the Supermodel.

Now, I'm more comfortable with myself and not as inclined to internalize the opinions of the males who, though older, show no signs of curtailing their tendency to offer unsolicited opinions of female pulchritude whenever they feel like it.

Because I didn't identify as an attractive woman until my early thirties, I thought that somehow immunized me from the ravages of aging to my psyche. I was wrong. I am also acutely aware (a point that is driven home to me from many sources) that at age 36, the power that I never even got to enjoy is slipping away.

[ismnotwasm]

16. yeah, It's easy to get pissed

I have 3 daughters, My oldest, (the one I talk about all the time in the army)Is tall and in very good shape. A head turner, so to speak. She's physically beautiful, (not perfect, but considered "hawt") Flat busted. She used to fret about that. Then she got her nipples pierced. Somehow self-mutilation made her feel better about her small bust. I don't have anything against piercings, but when she said it made her feel better about her bust size, I thought, somethings really wrong with that. I mean, she's a goddam combat veteran. My other two, are shorter, and the oldest of the two has gained a lot of weight. Now she, has very large breasts, but she's fat by societies standards despite the fact she very curvy. It bothers her, and she talks all the time about her weight. She too, is a physically beautiful girl. But not turning heads unless her breasts are obvious. The whole thing is disturbing. I've always told them its how YOU feel about how you look, and that's an inside job, but the societal pressures are so much. The message is too strong. I keep fighting it though. Me, I'm in good shape, 'buff' they call it. (not a body builder) A muscular woman. I get 'attention' even at 45, but interestingly nobody fucks with me. I think it's because I look like I might be able to kick ass, I hold my head up, and I speak my mind.

[Hello_Kitty]

19. Being "buff"

I've been lifting weights regularly for about 15 years now. I'll never be a body builder or fitness competitor because I lack the genetic makeup and the discipline to eat no more than a chicken breast and cup of rice a day. But I have obvious muscles and some people find it intimidating. Fine with me.

That's great that you communicate a positive message to your daughters though, as you correctly point out, the message they get from outside is stronger, louder, and more repetitive. They're listening, though. Unfortunately for me, my family was all about physical appearance where females were concerned. Male and female relatives regularly admonished my sister and me to watch our weights and scrutinized every aspect of our appearance.

Our grandmother was the worst. A fashion model back in the '20s and '30s, as far as she was concerned you really couldn't be too thin. And you had to be perfectly coiffed and groomed at all times. We were a horrible disappointment to her, what with our insistence on being normal sized and getting dirty. She let us know the perils of social rejection and spinsterhood that awaited us for our perfidy. It's funny now but I really absorbed it when I was a kid. Then you go out in the world and get the same message. I was screwed.

So I'm considered pretty now by most people. I'm a spinster and pretty much a loner. Go figure. Grandma was only half right.