Eloriel said I could come to this forum so don't hurt me

[Wetzelbill]

:-)

There was a discussion in GD several days ago, regarding weight discrimination and how women get discriminated against but men do not. For me it was probably the best discussion thread I have ever been involved in at DU. But, I think I proved my chops and got some respect from the women on the thread, because I was invited to come over here. I'm happy to do so too.

I am interested in women's issues, for several reasons. One, I am a Blackfeet Indian, and in my culture, women were always revered and had an important place within the society and in our ceremonies. However, over the course of assimilation, I am disgusted to say, women lost that respect in our community, As you all know, women are as important as ever within a commnunity and family structure, so that didn't change, but the respect and treatment of women did. I was always curious about the occurence and what needs to be done to rectify that, not just on my reservation, but in society as a whole.

Another reason stems from when I took a class on Gender, Race and Ethnicity, a few years ago. It touched on a lot of the basics of discrimination for me. Things that aren't that obvious to a man unless they are pointed out. For example, the objectification of women. Personally, I never realized just how prevalent it was. From tv commercials, to film to magazine ads. And, from this I began to gather why women struggle with weight issues, or just their looks in general. How you all have to deal with an impossible feminine ideal. Stuff that I passed by, took for granted or barely noticed most of my life was contributing to the repression of women. Now, I love to look at a beautiful model just as much as the next guy, but I never thought about how that commercial or ad affected the other 99 percent of women on Earth who couldn't possibly live up to that image. Or those young girls who watched music videos of women being degraded. It all struck me almost at once. I'm interested in nullifying that image as much as possible.

My third reason, is I would like to see more women in politics or other positions of influence. Right now, from my reservation, more women are going to college and getting degrees than men are. By a large margin. Yet, we only have one woman on our tribal council, and frankly, she's not a very good representative, imho. The rest of the men - 8 of them I think - might have a full brain pieced together between the whole lot of them. My point is, if we could get our educated young women to come back and get in positions of power, then and only then, I think my reservation could make progress. Our state Rep is an Indian woman and she's easily the most productive state rep we have ever had. We just had another woman named to the Governor's advisory board, she's a brilliant woman too. So there is some headway. I would be interested in seeing more of that. And on a larger level. Congress and especially the Senate, does not nearly have enough women. States don't have enough women Governors either, and if Jennifer Granholm in Michigan and Janet Napolitano in Arizona are any indication then, I think our country could use all the women governors that we can get. Anyway that is yet another thing I would like to work on.

Last, for now, is I am planning to run for state senate in my home state Montana. (I live in Arizona now) I am specifically interested in women and minority issues. I would like to find out as much info as I can from you all regarding what kind of legislation you would like to see, what kind of support systems for women are you interested in, programs, anything at all that you could think of. Please don't hold back, and even if something doesn't seem like a good idea I would love to hear it anyway. I am receptive to anything. The women from the thread the other day convinced me that it would be a good idea to write legislation against weight discrimination, so I'm pleased to say I will talk about during my campaign and, if elected, I will propose that legislation. Those are the type of ideas I am looking for, so tell me everything that you ever wanted to tell a policymaker but never had the chance to do. I'm an open book as far as you are all concerned. I'm looking forward to a fruitful discussion on all the issues that matter to you. Thanks.

[lukasahero]

1. Welcome to the group

and thank you for such a detailed and thoughtful post. Being a rather deliberate, Taurus-type ;), it will take me a day or two to formulate some reasonable semblence of a reply but I didn't want the day to pass without at least welcoming you and saying :hi:

[Wetzelbill]

9. you're welcome

reply whenever. Organize your thoughts and everything. :)

[cally]

2. I'm glad you came here

I'm fascinated that the role of women has changed on the reservation. Maybe as the younger women return some of that will change although I suspect many choose to not return.

I don't have ideas for legislation at the moment. I think the larger battle is to educate young women and men about feminism. Too many take the strides women have made for granted and proudly proclaim that they are not feminists. :shrug:

[Hello_Kitty]

3. "I'm not a feminist"

Aaargh!! Unfortunately, most people get their idea of what feminism is from Rush Limbaugh and similar media windbags.

One thing I noticed in school, from grammar school on up to college, is that the women's movement was barely covered. It's been a while for me and I know that having women's studies in college has done a lot to infuse more awareness into the curricula. But I still think that in comparison with the abolition and civil rights movement, the converage of women's struggles for suffrage, equal pay, domestic violence and rape laws, is pretty thin. When young women are not taught that the struggles of generations of women before them is important, it's no wonder they say "I'm not a feminist".

[cally]

4. It's amazing how little most know

I took women's studies courses in college, but I didn't know much about the suffrage movement until I took the time to read books about it on my own. Our struggle is not known. Most have no idea why the massacre of women, we call it witch burning, occured in Europe. Let alone how hard it was to pass legislation to make it a crime for a man to rape his wife. I remember hearing legislators argue that a man can't rape his wife even when women testified about massive brutality and attacks. We have to educate more.

[Wetzelbill]

6. I'll have to check the law on spousal rape in my state

because, if I recall, don't only a few states make it a crime for a man to rape his wife? I think in Arizona they couldn't get it passed. We have a goofy Lege here. Anti-education, racist against hispanics. It's one reason why I'm going back to Montana.

Again, yeah, I would like to work on spousal rape legislation too. This is all stuff I came to this forum to hear about.

So when you say we have to educate more, do you mean in schools? At home? I'd like to get your ideas on that. How do you get better outreach on this stuff?

[cally]

11. I think it is still legal in some states

When I heard about the legislation (California), women who had a long term separation could be legally raped by their husbands in California. Remember some religions don't allow divorce so some get legal separations.

I think some coverage in schools would be useful. It's been a long time since I was in high school but I remember it seemed like getting the right to vote for women was easy. I was astounded when I realized how late the US was in allowing women to vote. Turkey allowed women to vote before the US.

[Wetzelbill]

5. see now that is interesting

Why can't there be a permeation of these topics into a middle or high school curriculum?

I know in Montana after 25 years of struggling they finally passed funding for a law made all that time ago that required teachers on or near Indian reservations to have taken at least a course in Indian studies, and for schools to make available Indian studies classes so young MTans can learn about their culture or the culture of the people that they live in a community with.

Here in Tucson, the same thing. The Tucson Unified School District has four discernible ethnic studies programs: african-american, American Indian, Asian/Pacific Islanders, and Mexican/Raza.


Well why can't schools find funding for Women's studies? Give young women a sense of history, of pride in themselves and the strides women have made.

From a policy standpoint, I'd be interested in trying to get funding for something like that passed. I can't see why not.

[Finder]

8. It depends what region you are in I think...

since it seems that many states or localities down south(mostly)do not teach anything that may be deemed "liberal" by the boards. Sad, isn't it? And we wonder why so many southern women in particular use the phrase, "I'm not a feminist, but..."

I am glad to be in the Northeast and see my sons come home from middle school with projects on Susan B Anthony or Margaret Sanger, etc.

[Wetzelbill]

10. oh gosh down South

It would be near impossible to pass something like this.

Here in AZ, I actually heard a supposedly "liberal" columnist for a progressive alternative paper basically called ethnic, gender and racial studies worthless. He said they were only good for people to get their degrees then to get a job teaching the same subjects to other people. Outside of academia, he said they had no real world value. I about had an aneurysm, I was so angry reading it, haha.

These studies enrich the lives of minorities and women who otherwise wouldn't know much about themselves. They give them a sense of empowerment and belonging.

[Eloriel]

12. I'm all for women's studies, but

I begin to wonder if that's not precisely the source of the problem. Our history has been funneled off into WOMEN'S STUDIES, and left out of the mainstream, k-12 history books. It shouldn't be that way. Or at least the highlights -- what it took for us to get the vote, why the Women's Movement was needed and what conditions were before that, and what conditions STILL are -- such as, the continuing epidemic of violence against women -- incredible stats here:

American Bar Association
Commission on Domestic Violence
PREVALENCE
Domestic violence crosses ethnic, racial, age, national origin, sexual orientation, religious and socioeconomic lines.
http://www.abanet.org/domviol/stats.html


At the same time, it would be helpful I think to cover how oppression works for ANY minority or oppressed group. I'm thinking especially of the wonderful little book by Suzanne Pharr, "Homophobia as a Tool of Sexism."

Of course, I recognize how difficult getting those two things covered in our SCHOOLS would be, but since you asked....

And hey! WELCOME to the group. I really meant it when I said I'd not encountered ANY male DUer who was as knowledgeable and sensitive and pro-woman as you showed yourself to be on that thread -- you don't happen to remember what thread it was and have a link, do you? I think others might enjoy seeing it.

[Wetzelbill]

14. yes, I have the thread bookmarked, I'll post it for everyone

Wow, that link you pasted is a goldmine of information.

So I think what you're saying is instead of having a Woman's studies course, that all of that information should be required in a mainstream course, say about American history, for example?

To me, it would be beneficial to have gotten to learn the history of women in a regular class, when I was, say 16 years old. Quite a bit of the stuff I learned just messing around this forum earlier today I never knew. I felt a little embarassed for myself that I never knew Turkey let their women vote before we did. In fact, as a Indian, I can't even recall off hand when my people were allowed to vote. That's something I should know, but don't. And, I take the time to look into this stuff, I can't imagine what most people are like.

The same tactics are used to oppress any minority or oppressed group. I think discrimination, unfortunately, is something that crosses over well, and you don't have to be a genius to figure out how to repress someone in the first place.

But at any rate, I'm glad to be here. This is by far the most intelligent smartest group I've seen. You don't get this level of discussion and passion in GD, for sure.

[Eloriel]

18. No, no, not instead of

So I think what you're saying is instead of having a Woman's studies course,

I'm not suggesting an END to women's studies clsses or curricula -- goodness no.

What I'm saying is that there is a serious need for SOME additional women's history in regular, everyday history classes in all grades, esp. high school and also probably American and even World history in colleges and universities. I fear that women's history is just as "invisible" as it ever was before women got busy and discovered it, because it's been isolated and parceled off into special classes that only the most seriously interested will take advantage of.

[Wetzelbill]

19. ok, I get what you mean now

Along with the regular women's studies, you would want additional women's history in other classes and in all grades. Yeah that makes sense.

You answered a question I was going to ask you too. I was going to ask if you felt that because a class is labeled "Women's Studies" or something of that nature that only a few of the most interested take it, when the information is valuable to all students.

[bobbieinok]

91. also minority history incorporated into 'regular' history courses

eg, black history through out the course, not just as a few token lessons in February

[Wetzelbill]

7. glad to be here

The role of women really began to change, to the degree that it is now, around WW2, when you had young Indian men go off to war on the other side of the earth, who had never been off the reservation before that. I don't need to tell any of you about the extent that misogyny exists in the military and it was the same then as it was now. So you got these men coming back, after seeing the horrors of war, assimilated, in tune with a hyper-masculine culture in a conservative part of the country, and a women's role began to get much more servile.

No hurry on any ideas, yet. Just let me know about you care about and what you'd like to see done about it, whenever something comes to you.

[spooky3]

13. welcome, Wetzelbill. Also, Ken Burns did a great documentary

on women's suffrage:

http://www.pbs.org/stantonanthony/

[Wetzelbill]

15. thanks, I bet my library has it

[noamnety]

16. One of the things you could do

Is make a point of changing the discourse, even when it relates to your opponents. One of the big problems with women politicians is media coverage of their clothing habits and personal life rather than focusing on the issues. So please, take a stand against that. If you are running against a woman and see a writeup in the newspaper that focuses in her looks rather than her policies, it would be great to send a LTTE calling them out on their sexism, and saying that you don't believe it's appropriate to dismiss her political views in favor of writing about her wardrobe - that it does a disservice not only to her, but to all women. And then sign it with your name, so people see this is coming from her opponent.

Or if you see writeups along the same lines about the women in office that you support, start calling them on it.

[Wetzelbill]

17. thanks, that's a great idea

[Logansquare]

20. Welcome, but a good start is to stop saying things like

"so don't hurt me" Can you imagine me (a white woman) going into the African American issues group and saying something like that? It would imply that I thought African Americans were emotionally volatile and enjoyed attacking white people. Please take this in the spirit it is offered, and don't dismiss it as some irrelevant bit of PC. There are many in here who love men (including me), but we hate being pushed down and demeaned because of our gender. C'mon, put up your dukes, we can take it, and so can you.

[Wetzelbill]

21. ahh,,, but see that was the joke.... I was preten...

I got nothing. :) No comeback whatsoever.

No, sure, I understand. I won't do it again. I believe that if someone asks you not to do it, it must mean something to them, so I respect your pov and your wishes.

But that was all you wanted to add? Nothing about what the rest of my post? I'd like to hear your opinions on that other stuff too.

[Misunderestimator]

22. Hi Bill...

It's like some of the things I pointed out to you before... The use of "our women" when describing women (which you understood). Then immediately admonishing me by responding to a post of mine in another thread (which was a copycat thread ABOUT a sexist thread). I had laughed in my post and you responded, "hey I just used the word "our" in that other post, you should really be whipping some ass here. This is your time to shine." You didn't understand how that was condescending either. It was a joke.

For me, there is a certain condescension in a lot of your posts. Even this one, I had the same reaction Logan did, but I didn't say anything, because I've already pointed some things out to you and don't want to come across as harping.

For what it's worth the language you use can put women on the defensive. And when it's pointed out to you, you say "it's a joke" or "I was just kidding." It's hard to respond to the bigger subject when one is immediately put on the defensive.

[Wetzelbill]

24. obviously that's something I'll have to work on

It's so ingrained in me to joke around with people about stuff that maybe I don't fully realize how it comes off. Don't worry about coming off as harping, honest just say how you feel.

I understand now how you could take it as condescending, of course. But, I wasn't being condescending. There is a big difference in coming off as a jerk on accident and actually being one. The only thing I can do is listen to you, not do it anymore, and try to avoid doing something similar in the future.

I mean, I've been trying to work on this reply for probably an hour. I don't even know what to say right now for fear of offending you. I feel like I type out all of these posts, say all these nice things about women and legislation I would like to write for all your rights, but then you just purposely find something to lash out at me on. Plus, you're holding things against me from yesterday that I went out of my way to apologize for. I felt bad all day about it and everything. I was totally condescended to awhile ago and I apologized for making a mistake. I'm totally on the defensive, myself. Honest I don't know what to say. I feel it doesn't matter what I say, I'm just going to get beat on anyway.

[Misunderestimator]

25. I'm surprised you spent an hour on that response...

and yet you couldn't resist turning it back on me... "but then you just purposely find something to lash out at me on."

Really... what is this about? On one hand you say to be honest, that you are looking for ways to improve... then you ruin that sentiment by saying you don't understand what you're doing wrong. I am not beating you up. I am trying to help you understand how your words come across.

I think that I will not try any longer.

[Wetzelbill]

31. it's not about turning it on you

You seem to think it's perfectly fine to be mad at me for making a mistake. I never tried to offend you on purpose. But, now I feel offended, but it's different because it's ok for you to offend me.

I didn't say I don't understand what I was doing wrong. After you explained it to me I got it. I said I was sorry, I will work on it. What I said is that I'm feeling like you are lashing out at me. Now I may be wrong, but that's how I feel. You just don't care how I feel.

I wrote that whole original post, I have written probably ten really long posts in this forum that other women have complimented me on, said were thoughtful and nice. I didn't just come to here on my own. I was invited here because several of the other women thought so highly of my comments on another thread that they wanted me to join the discussion. In all of that, you have found no reason to ever compliment me on anything I have said. Or give me any feedback on ideas or anything. All you have done is criticize me.

You just looked at the name of this post and my reply to Logan and you ripped into me about them. She didn't even take my reply to her in that manner, she understood, because her and I have been joking around all night, on different threads back and forth. I don't fault you for not knowing that, but it still hurts to get jumped on about it.

I understand how my words came across, you explained it to me and I apologized. You tried to humiliate me by quoting verbatim what I said to you yesterday on that other thread. I apologized profusely for that, I went out of my way to do so. I don't know another man on earth who would do that. You aren't trying to help me when you do something like that. You're trying to put me in my place.

When I just expressed my feelings and how I felt, you blamed me for turning everything on you. I didn't do that to you, when you said you felt offended. If you told me that you felt I was lashing out at you, I would say I was sorry and apologize for it, maybe I would explain that I didn't mean to do that. You just blamed me for it. How do you know how I felt? You're not me. I respected your complaints and apologized for them. You took mine and tried to make me feel sexist for them. Then you tried to make me feel stupid by saying that you weren't going to try to help me understand any longer. You even belittled me for saying that I worked on it for an hour. I did. I kept deleting stuff, because I didn't know what to say. I was right too, instead of looking at what I said, trying to appreciate that I was nervous about offending you more and a little offended myself, you wrote an angry accusatory post at me. Maybe I am taking it all wrong. But, when you took something I said wrong, I went out of my way to right the wrong. You haven't. I'm upset by that. If the shoe was on the other foot you would be too.

I read your posts. I always took you as a really good-natured person. I meant everything I said to you yesterday when I PM'ed you. Maybe we are just crossing signals here and misreading each other or something. I still hope we can work this out. I think we're both better than this. Maybe we're just being petty at each other I don't know. I don't want to bear no ill will.

[Misunderestimator]

35. You are taking this far too personally.

I sincerely offered you my thoughts on how your words can be interpreted. You have turned it into a personal thing. I am very surprised to see the extent to which this has hurt your feelings, when, if you go back and read every post I've made to you, I have never once attacked you.

I did not try to humiliate you. I did not attack you. I am not beating you up. I am merely explaining to you how your words can come across condescendingly. If you take that as an attack, there really is nothing I can say about that.

I had imagined that you were in this forum becase you were interested in hearing from women specifically, from a woman's perspective. I offered that to you. Now you respond with this diatribe that is so over the top I hardly know how to respond to it.

I won't try to "right a wrong" here, because I did nothing wrong. Read my posts again. Then read this response of yours. I have no idea how you are reading that much animosity from my words.

[Finder]

36. Honesty is a good thing...

and you admitted you felt defensive and why. If you look at it from his perspective, with two posts calling him out it is understandable he would be put in an uncomfortable situation. There is no way to have a decent, honest conversation if one party has to watch their words.

[Misunderestimator]

38. When the person has made it clear that he wants to learn...

why would I not offer advice on the effect of his words? No one is asking him to watch his words, but if he uses words that make women defensive, it seems he would want to know.

I watch my words in certain situations, don't you?

[Finder]

40. In here I do...

I am a women and didn't find anything he said condescending or offensive. I see people as people, not male people or female people--ya know, equals. I think you have every right to examine a persons words but I do think it put the poster on guard and should have been approached in private. I don't think the tension it creates is a good thing. It is divisive and will put a lot of potential contributors on guard about offering in the group.

[Misunderestimator]

41. I appreciate your perspective...

However, I don't agree that I should have approached this in private. Since the original post was made in a public forum, it's likely that others reacted as I did, and also didn't respond. When I saw that I wasn't the only one who felt this way, I thought that since he and I had already discussed this that I could make it clearer for him. Doing that in private wouldn't have met my purpose of presenting my perspective in a public forum to a public post.

We all have our way of dealing with others, as I have said to you before. Why you feel it necessary to tell me what I should and should not say in public is beyond me.

[Finder]

43. I would never dictate what you should or should not say...

I abhor censorship in any way, shape or form. Just look at the division it is causing on DU as a whole lately--shudder.

I was just trying to offer a different perspective.

[Wetzelbill]

42. I don't know, maybe something was just the straw that broke the

camel's back. I don't know. I'm not going to argue with you. I think you're an intelligent woman, I've witnessed how sweet and personable you can be. I'm going to step back and give you the benefit of the doubt. I have alot of respect for you, I know women are passionate about these issues, as I am. Maybe I can't exactly feel what you all go through, but I can do my best. Since, some things I say offend you, I will do my best to improve in that area. I know who I am, I'm a good person and a nice guy, I have no insecurities about stepping back out of this and working on what you spoke to me about. Let's put this behind us and become better friends or whatever because of it.

I still would appreciate it, if you looked at my OP, and some of the others I have posted in this forum and give me your feedback on them. I'm looking for ideas, and possible legislation that you would be interested in. Today, I'm going to leak my announcement to a female journalist I know back home, who I promised first shot at the story. From here on out, I will be in campaign mode. I want to make women's rights part of my platform, in a place where it is unheard of for a male to do so. I want to break some ground, and I believe that your voice and input is as valuable as any. I would appreciate that from you. So thanks for reading this, I know it's been a long last few hours.

[Logansquare]

26. Bill, let down your defenses.

We don't hate you, we don't get a kick out of correcting you. I wish all men were open to hearing a woman's point of view.

I go into the African American issues forum all the time, and though I don't agree with everything I read, it gets me to thinking about how being non-white in American can effect your every perception of even little events. It was one of the things mentioned in the well circulated article about white privilege: being white means never having to second guess being seated in the back of a restaurant, being pulled over for a broken tail light, having to ring a bell in order to get into a nice store. Is it because I'm black? becomes the haunting thought that puts a cloud over what should be pleasant activities.

But, examining white privilege doesn't mean that whites should feel guilty or "bad" about being of European descent, nor does mean that people of African descent should feel superior. White guilt never does anything productive about racism, it just personalizes it and thus prevents the removal of racism as a cultural and structural thing.

Understanding white privilege should open up a dialog, and cause white people to question things like portrayals of both races and genders in media (how many movie posters do you see with a triumphant cocky white guy in the front, a beautiful white woman either clinging to him or standing slightly behind him, and the funny, black sidekick in the background posing in a non-threatening but "funky" manner?), the distribution of resources to both races (drive through both the west side and north side of Chicago to get an idea of how something as simple as pothole and sidewalk repair is determined by race and class), and the sexual tensions that still exist because of racial stereotypes (black women are loose, white women are desirable trophies, black men can't control sexual urges, only white men can truly be homosexuals).

I digressed above intentionally--you can see many instances of sexism intertwined with racism. Darryl Gates (the infamous LA police chief who bungled response to the riots following the Rodney King beating verdict), said when questioned by reporters about the high incidence of black suspects dying from chokeholds, "Blacks choke easier than normal people." Thats what we all should be fighting--the ingrained belief in our society that there is such a thing as a "normal" person, and he is white, male, and middle class.

Kudos to anyone who gets through my essay above, I just want to articulate that although we can correct individuals, we need to get to the rotten core of this sickness. It's not personal, Bill. You'll believe me someday.

[Wetzelbill]

29. oh I believe you , I know it's not personal

You're probably reading my other post now anyway. No I understand what you are getting at and everything trust me. It's you know I felt things were coming at me on both sides. It's fine.

[Logansquare]

23. No, I think it's cool that a man would like to come here

And I'm sorry if I seemed like I was overreacting. Sometimes men say things to me that are "jokes" but contain hidden communication about anxiety about women and feminism. I used to ignore it, but I've decided that communication is the most important thing that needs to start happening between men and women, so at the risk of being labelled a humorless feminist (grrr), I try talk about it.

One example: a man in my field with whom I had a cordial (and entirely professional) email correspondence concerning issues in our profession was at the same conference as me. We finally ran into each other at a mixer. I saw his name tag and introduced myself. He said "I'd love to give you a hug, but I don't want to be accused of sexual harrassment!"

This is the kind of thing men say when they are ambivalent about women being in the workforce, and anxious about their own sexual feelings toward women. They are often uneducated about what actually constitutes sexual harrassment, and also perhaps feeling a little disempowered, since of course, men are supposed to be in charge.

I chatted for a minute and politely disengaged myself from the conversation, since learning wasn't going to occur over cocktails. I later explained my coolness toward him in an email, and why I found his comment disturbing. He was genuinely apologetic, and explained to me that as a man from South Asian, he had difficulty making the transition to being on equal standing with women, and sometimes behaved inappropriately. He also confessed that he had been reprimanded by his supervisor about his behavior toward female colleagues. I urged him to get counseling or talk to a mentor; what ever would get him over this disease (IMO) of sexism. To play on Marx, "Men of the world, see women as your equals. You have nothing to lose but your chains."
I

[Wetzelbill]

27. I don't think you were overreacting

You feel how you feel. I believe you took it wrong, but I also should have realized it may have offended you. I bear most of the blame just out of my own ignorance. Women should understand, and I am not kidding, men are pretty dumb about this stuff. We really are. We have to be taught, but I know that isn't easy because most men would rather blow it off and not listen.

Honestly, you really threw me off. I didn't know how to reply to it. when you typed:"C'mon, put up your dukes, we can take it, and so can you." I thought it was condescending and that you were absolutely angry at me. I started to explain myself, but I just didn't genuinely know what to say. I felt totally on the defensive. But, then I just took a few minutes to think it over and I thought back to how we posted a few replies to each other's posts and stuff last night, and how you kept cracking me up the whole time, so I just gave you the benefit of the doubt. Because, you seem truly nice and humorous and I figured you weren't trying to humiliate me or anything. So, I just tried to make a joke out of it, apologize and move on. But, Misunderestimator, told me that my reply to you was, well not good, I guess. I didn't mean to make light of it all or sound like a jerk then too, I was just totally defensive and thrown off then, plus I didn't want to say anything else to dig myself into a deeper hole. Right now, I'm still on edge about both of your posts. I'm here to learn some stuff, so I can help women's rights, when I win my election, which I believe I will do. Sorry about it all though, obviously it's something I have to work on and be wary of, you know?

Humorless? You are hilarious! C'mon! No, it is good to get a dialogue going about it because too often things can be misunderstood, especially over the internet, where body language and so forth are not a factor. With regards to your friend that you met, it may not only be that he was ambivalent about women in the workforce, because society teaches men certain things about meeting women, first impressions and so forth.

There is this myth that you have to be funny and witty to get a woman to like you. Not just for love or sex, but even for friendship. But, if you ever read Stuff or Maxim or even Playboy, they always ask questions of beautiful women and I have never saw one yet when a woman hasn't said that she likes a guy with a sense of humor. Men also believe that you have to use a line. To break the ice. Maybe pick her up. Or just make a good first impression. He was probably nervous, and thought he was saying something funny. But, that wasn't funny. There is that notion though that one line will magically do the trick. I mean as if a guy could just say:"Hey, how do you want your eggs cooked tomorrow morning?" to some woman and she'll swoon melting into his arms. It's foolish but it's there. So he may have -not that he was trying to sleep with you I'm sure he wasn't - been trying to crack a joke to ease his nervousness and make a good friendly first impression. Which, he obviously failed miserably at.

That is just something else that may have been at play as well.

Anyway, I don't want to ramble on any more than I have. I'm going to shed these chains and get out of here. :) Thanks for all of the discussion, I enjoyed it.

[Logansquare]

28. Thanks, Wetzelbill. I was the unusual female class clown in school

I sincerely apologize for hurting your feelings with the "Put up your dukes" clowning. I think humor defuses a lot of negative feelings, although I know from sorry experience that it can sometimes backfire. I've had a number of people get very pissed at me for my clumsier attempts at humor, so I am aware that I can say hurtful and condescending things without meaning it.

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Wetzelbill]

44. thank you for that, btw

It just made me feel a little defensive is all. That's fine. We all make mistakes and can all be taken the wrong way. Personally, I really find your humor engaging. I crack many a bombed joke too. :)

[A-Schwarzenegger]

37. A humble suggestion:

just be yourself. Relax. Breathe. Stop trying to "figure out"
women like they are a weird puzzling alien race with weird
locks all over them that you have to figure out how to open.
Your heart is obviously in the right place, and you want to
learn, as I do, but why not get ourself in a place where we
can enjoy the learning instead of being all tied up in knots.
It's a long journey and we arent going to learn it all in one
or two or a hundred threads or situations in RL. I'm on the
journey with you of learning to respect women (and myself),
accept them as they are (as I want to accept myself as I am),
treat "them" as individuals when I'm exchanging and relating
with "them," and, you know, just dig the whole ride. There is
a struggling aspect to it, sure, because I'm greedy sometimes
for the awakening to proceed apace, but it's got its own speed
and it's clearly going on in you and can't be stopped now that
your eyes and heart are opening, as mine are. You're not the
only one going through this enlightenment business. But since we're
going through it, you know, and since we're going to be going
through it for a long time now that we started, because you
can't really turn back once you start, because we see through
it now, so we might as well dig it as much as we can. It's
like this sentence from one of the books I used to get sober:
"The minute I stopped arguing, I could begin to see and feel."
Please take this all in the best way because that's how I'm
sending it, with love and appreciation and recognition and
kinship on the journey.

[Finder]

32. You should have PMd him.

It can be quite uncomfortable being put on the spot like that.

[Wetzelbill]

33. so Finder

How are you doing? :)

[Finder]

34. Doing good, and you?

I am using my lunch break to catch up on the posts. Trying to stay PC and away from trouble.lol

[Wetzelbill]

39. I am better actually

:)

[Logansquare]

45. This group is about being "put on the spot"

because we are all working out how women and men should relate together, and how institutionalized sexism can pervert and destroy the good things we can do together.

Bill and I have discussed this privately, and he understands that my post was not a personal attack, but a "teaching moment" (as they say in academe) for all men who inhabit this group. Except for A-Schwarzeneger, who is near to achieving satori :)

http://sped2work.tripod.com/satori.html

[A-Schwarzenegger]

46. Ha!

Thanks for the smiley. I had so far to go to start with
that no matter how far I've gone (with plenty of help
& usually only because it hurt too much to NOT change),
I still got so far to go it isnt even funny. My own sexism is
not dead, it only slumbers, with one eye open, just waiting for me
to think I'm satoriized.

[Wetzelbill]

47. Teach me Oh Obi-Wan

:-)

[A-Schwarzenegger]

48. New sig?

Or have I somehow noticed it before?!

EDIT: I wouldnt use it as a campaign slogan.

[Wetzelbill]

49. switched it about 5 days ago...

I had the other one for well over a year, so I felt a change was in order. No, I think I'll hold off of using it as a campaign slogan, haha.

[Misunderestimator]

50. Good idea... I'm just curious... do you know how sexist your signature is?

[Ripley]

51. I noticed that too.

But I figured his response would be: it is non-gender specific.

I'll try to give him the benefit of the doubt, but I've never heard a woman refer to a man as a piece of ass. Just things like "a good lay" or "good in bed" or "cute butt."

[lukasahero]

52. Ok, another educational opportunity?

I had to turn on my "see sigs" preference because of you two and have to say, Bill, you're blowing it. No jokes, no "oops" this time, just plain old bad idea.

Is there a "shakes her head in wonder" emoticon?

[progmom]

53. does this work?

[Ripley]

54. Hey progmom!

What the hell are your smileys DOING? :D

Oh wait...I get it ... DJ and dancers right? At first it looked like a giant hot tub or grill! Geeshus.

[progmom]

55. in my signature?

they are dancing, of course! :hi:

[Ripley]

56. Yeah, I edited my post...

after I looked at it again. I need new progressive glasses. Am I old?

[progmom]

57. it would be funny if i came to the feminist forum with a really sexist sig

wouldn't it? :P

[Ripley]

58. Yeah! A real fucking HOOTANANNY!

Or however that dumb word is spelled.

Like, why don't we post tits and ass pics as well?

Just to show we looooooooooooove the women, you know.

[Misunderestimator]

59. LOL... Now There's an idea!

:hi:

[Misunderestimator]

60. I had to do the same thing, after reading A-Schwarzenegger's post...

Otherwise, I would have mentioned something sooner.

[Ripley]

61. Thanks oh rational rose lukasahero!

I'm glad it's not just me.

[lukasahero]

76. Hey you!

;)

Sorry for earlier about the not agreeing 100% thing. I could have been wrong. Time will tell.

Have I ever mentioned how much I despise confilct? Yup, I'm the peacemaker even in my own family - have been since I was just a wee lass. Anyway, don't hold it against me - I'm actually working on it. (Yeah, you should have seen me before - timid doesn't begin to cover it. This is me being bold. No, really. Stop laughing. :))

[Ripley]

90. Oh garsh, don't apologize for not agreeing with me.

I certainly don't expect everyone to walk lockstep...HOWEVER, there are some basic agreements of philosophy we specifically set out in the mission statement and they are constantly broken here.

I think some people here are more gullible than others and cannot see the disruption for what it is. However, I am quite capable of over-reaction and I tried to explain that and apologized if I misinterpreted some of those posters in that other thread.

But there does seem to be a trend. Man asks for honest evaluation. Man gets evaluation, not necessarily good. Man gets huffy and feels persecuted and leaves. Woman inherits the world. (Did I just steal that line from Jurassic Park? :crazy: )

I guess this is to be expected...these exact arguments happen all of the time in the rest of DU. I had just hoped it wouldn't happen here.

You are an excellent peacemaker and are quite bold! :hi:

[Wetzelbill]

63. not to condone it

but I hear women say it all the time. I personally don't say it though. Don't think I ever have actually, I got it from a woman. In fact a saw a woman wearing it on a t-shirt too.

[Misunderestimator]

64. Yeah, ok.

[Wetzelbill]

65. Not sure what you mean?

Did that make you mad what I said or what? I don't read you.

[Misunderestimator]

66. It's the way you don't take any responsibility for what you do.

"but I hear women say it all the time. I personally don't say it though. Don't think I ever have actually, I got it from a woman. In fact a saw a woman wearing it on a t-shirt too."

If you personally don't say it, why the hell would you have it as a signature in the first place? And I'm curious what kind of women you hang around with who say "piece of ass" all the time. Do you, or do you not, realize that that is a SEXIST statement? (Not matter how many women you claim you have heard say it, it doesn't change the fact that it's sexist.)

[Wetzelbill]

67. ok

One of the women mentioned she never heard a woman say it before. I just added that I have. I had it on my signature because it came from, what was supposed to be, a humorous t-shirt that a woman was wearing. A woman provided the link to the picture of the t-shirt.

Ok, it is sexist. I changed it. You never replied to where I changed it and said:"thanks Bill." No you choose to pick at me no matter what. So if a woman walked by you with that t-shirt on would you treat her the way you treat me. I doubt it.

You go out of you way to offend me, but that's fine with you. So when do you ever take responsibility. Pretty much never from what I see. Other women from this forum pm'ed me and said that you were overreaching and offending me. But that's ok with you I guess.

[Misunderestimator]

68. LOL... I'm supposed to thank you!

:rofl: Oh wow... today has been remarkably humorous.

I'm glad that you have friends in women here who have PM'd you about how awful I am... at least then you're not alone.

You are one of the most infuriating posters I've ever encountered here. But that's ok with you I guess.

[Wetzelbill]

69. not that you're awful

Just that you're being difficult to me. I changed my signature, I listened to you right off as soon as I said it. What more am I to do. I wish you wouldn't go out of your way to argue. Because that is what you are doing.

[Misunderestimator]

70. It's not out of my way to post in the feminist group...

especially in response to responses to my posts. Yes, I am being difficult to you... why? Because you aren't seeing what you do. You aren't recognizing you're part in it. Instead, you play the victim, and I have no patience for that.

[Wetzelbill]

71. you're right

I'm not playing victim. I'm just frustrated with you. We started off on the wrong foot and it's been tough since. Maybe I'll leave. I don't know. I recognize my part in it, but I just can't change everything in one day. I changed my signature, I'm trying to be more sensitive with my posts and my jokes. I wish you could cut me a little slack, it's not easy you know. I'm getting mad and I don't want to be mad. I wish you would look at other things I've said instead of finding something to get mad at. I wish you would tell me your interests and stuff too. All I know right now, is what angers you, you know. But, let's knock this off, we're getting petty with each other and we shouldn't be. I'm trying to make peace, ok. :)

[Misunderestimator]

72. We're just two anonymous people on a message board...

I'm glad you'll work on your sensitivity to what might offend women. That's a good thing. My advice, don't take things so personally, and don't always turn things around to be about you.

[progmom]

73. Bill, if you're really planning on running for office

...you might think about working on your diplomacy skills.

[Wetzelbill]

74. Hi Progmom

Nice to see you. I'm trying to do so. It's not easy when both sides are stubborn and all. :)

[progmom]

75. I think Misunderestimator was trying to help you see the impact of your

...choice of words, and you got a little unnecessarily bent out of shape. If you're here looking for perspective, that's great - open your ears and learn. But if you're hoping everyone is going to just tell you you're great for being a feminist who happens to be a guy, you're probably going to be disappointed.

Nice to see you too! :hi:

[Wetzelbill]

77. Perspective...

Like this? :)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=341&topic_id=2862&mesg_id=3049

[progmom]

78. you sent me to a post of yours

which included this quote:

"but sometimes when we (men) get into the discussion we want to talk about ourselves."

:shrug:

[Wetzelbill]

79. I just can't win

:)

[progmom]

80. Seriously Bill...I wasn't sure if you sent me to the wrong post?

I didn't see how what I was saying related to the post you sent me to.

Can you just tell me? Maybe it's late and I'm tired and I'm not picking up on things the way I should.

[Wetzelbill]

81. I was trying to

see if you thought my post had some perspective to it. Don't worry buddy, it's no big deal. Get some rest and all and I'll see you tomorrow. In GD and the Lounge. :)

[progmom]

82. oh, i see

but i think we all should be open to learning more. and at the beginning of this thread, that was your stated purpose for being here. it just seems like when my friend Misunderestimator offers what i read as being constructive advice, you take it as a personal insult.

if you're truly here to learn, keep your ears and your mind open, my friend.

[Wetzelbill]

83. you are a sage

Nonetheless, I'll probably be hanging out in other places from now on. But, thanks for the advice and all.

[Misunderestimator]

84. Bill...

I know how you feel, for different reasons I felt I was getting attacked on another thread earlier today myself. It can make a man feel defensive, that you can't seem to say anything right. I would advise you to keep in mind that these women take all of these issues to heart. Sometimes they are so passionate about their side of the issue, that something you may say or do, however well meaning it might be, can ignite that passion.

Where were you "attacked"? What was well-meaning that was misinterpreted?

These women? We take all of these issues to heart? Sometimes we are so passionate about our side of the issue that something you say or do, however you think it's well-meaning ignites a passion? :rofl: How FUCKING condescending of you... AGAIN.

Wow.... just wow.

Now I await your response crying about how sorry you are, that you didn't mean anything by anything you said... that you are a feminist... Sorry, buddy, it just doesn't fly with me.

[Wetzelbill]

85. Eloriel specifically asked me to comment on that thread

and I did. She said it was perfectly stated. Did you read the thread? I doubt you did. But, you know what, all you ever do is find something to fight with me about anyway. I apologized over and over and over about the same thing. I can only take so much. Now your making fun of me? I never did anything to hurt you, but you just have it out for me. Don't worry, I'm not coming around here anymore.

[progmom]

86. Bill - I have read a lot of the responses in this thread.

It has hardly been a one-sided exchange. Please don't act as though you are being persecuted.

[Wetzelbill]

87. It isn't I l know

I just don't want to argue with anybody else. Especially you. I like you and I respect you. I don't think I'm getting persecuted, I just deserve to be treated better. I don't go out of my way to start fights or anything. I just want to avoid this all.

[progmom]

88. Ok, fair enough.

My point, though, is that she deserved to be treated better too.

[Wetzelbill]

89. I understand that

I know she's your friend, I get along great with you, and I was hoping MisU and I could as well. We're having trouble seeing eye to eye here. I think her and I just need to back off and give each other some space. I know you're a really good person, so if you say I need to treat her better than it must be so. So, I will treat her better.

[Wetzelbill]

62. I changed it