So it seems

[bloom]

that there are quite a few people (app. one third) who voted in a recent DU poll that they think it is unfair that single women can choose to get abortions or adoptions or choose to have babies that were unplanned and the men don't get to choose anything. (As if any of those choices are necessarily good ones for the potential mother).

Plus - quite a few men are mad that if the woman chooses to raise the child - they are responsible for making some (often rather nominal IMO) monetary contribution.

The fewer the encounters the man had with the woman - the more indignant the man (from what I've heard from child support collectors).

To hear some men tell it - it's like paying for sex after the fact instead of paying a prostitute up front.

So this is question for the women - what do you think about this?

Is this the inevitable consequence of abortion - that (many) men feel that they should not have any responsibility - since women have this "choice"?

[VelmaD]

1. Men have never felt...

they should have any responsibility for anything. That's what's gotten the world into the state of higgle-piggledy it's currently in.

And they did have a choice...if you don't want to have to bear the responsibility for any children...don't have sex without a condom. Period. End of story.

[bloom]

2. While there are, of course

a multitude of instances of unplanned pregnancy due to no-birth-control-by-either-side cases - there are also quite a few cases or one or more methods failing. So even if people thought they were being more or less responsible at the time - they would still have to face a reality/responsibility check later.

It seems it may not be a coincidence that this irresponsibility "movement" (because I keep hearing more about this all the time) is growing at the same time that it is easier to prove the father through DNA testing - and that child support collection is becoming more efficient.

[raccoon]

21. Or get a vasectomy. nt

[Kipepeo]

37. Can I Get an Amen?

I have met so many men who swear up and down they don't want to ever be father but who would never consider vasectomy. *Their* responsibility?!? Mais, non!

[Bunny]

3. I am continuously amused at the men who cry about child support

and claim that women set them up by having their kid, so they can live off of their lavish child support payments! Yeah, boy I'll tell ya - we are REALLY living it up here on that $300 my ex sends me for my older kid! Champagne, caviar, why I haven't had to
work at all since I started receiving those whopper checks!

I don't mean to treat your thread lightly, I've just been chuckling at these outraged men who are fuming at these evil women, living the life of luxury on $300/month!

One thing about Scalito's nomination: if it effectively outlaws abortion, even more men are going to be trapped in the web of child support payments. Wonder how many of them will still tell us to sit down and shut up about it?

[bloom]

4. "if it effectively outlaws abortion"

It is rather disturbing to me to think that so many men seem to see it that way - that it's just about their pocketbook and how much sex they will be able to get.

I remember the comment of a young man who posted on DU who said that he was mostly waiting to have sex until he would be able to afford any possible children - because he wanted to be able to finish college, etc.

You know women think like that - it's nice to me to know that there are young men who do as well. Maybe they aren't as vocal as the ones who read the men's rights sites. But the poll was disturbing - since it shows how widespread that attitude is. (Though it was a leading question to get that result...)

[geniph]

5. Don't want to pay child support?

then get a freakin' vasectomy. That's my take on it. If you don't trust your partner to be using reliable birth control, then DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT YOURSELF. Snip, snip, and the problem is all gone.

I don't have a lot of sympathy. There ARE cases - it happened to one of my nephews, and we're living in terror of it happening to my stepson with his thoroughly unpleasant girlfriend - where a woman does get pregnant and opts to keep the baby against the man's will, and requires him to pay child support. A man who's really worried about that will either be careful about using a condom or will get a vasectomy. If he doesn't take precautions himself, how can he require the woman to do so?

But even should my stepson's horrid girlfriend get pregnant and keep the baby to hang onto him, it's not like she'll be living the life of Reilly or something - neither of them has a decent job. They'll be on welfare within the year. But it's not like you can tell my stepson anything...like many young guys, he's totally blind to future consequences of today's actions. Sigh...

In a case like that, while none of us want his girlfriend around, there's none of us likely to give him a pass on his responsibility for preventing it, either. His father keeps buying him boxes of condoms!

[bloom]

14. I think

vasectomies are great. What a relief to not have to worry about birth control.

I can understand that a young man would not want to get one. (His father keeps buying him boxes of condoms! - LOL) I can't understand why a man with 6 kids with 6 different women - none of whom he can afford to offer regular support to - would not.

Maybe there needs to be a free (or cheap) vasectomy program for some people. (Maybe there is - but I haven't heard).

[ismnotwasm]

6. I'll say it again, in crude terms. Men:

Keep your ejaculating dick away from ANY vagina of a woman you don't wish to have a baby with. Your choice begins and ends with that decision. Don't want to pay child support? Don't place yourself in the position to be a father. Only ONE sure way to do that.

I hear that nonsense you are talking about too, and it's just an attempt to "adam and eve" the situation. In other words, it's the women's fault for getting pregnant. Sorry, I don't buy it. Not for one minute. Men have a choice. They have a choice to not have sex. The common male expectation of sex--that it's not only OK, but deserved AND entitled is part of huge feminist issues. We can go into any feminist dialog from this point. Rape culture. Inequities in the work place. Pornography--you name it, it has it's roots in Men's demand for constant sexual access to women.

It's hard to say shit like that sometimes because it some people see it as too hard ass, or anti male, which I'm not. To me it's the simple truth. If male and female met on a equal sexual playing field--it might be different. But that hasn't happened at any point in recent history, and I don't see it happening in the near future. Sexual explotation of women continues. Men still feel sexual entitlement. And the world overtly and covertly supports this. I call bullshit.

[Triana]

7. Oh but then THEY would have to take responsibility for

their choices! *gasp!*

That's something only WOMEN ought to have to do!

:sarcasm:

Seriously though, ismnotwasm - VERY WELL put. Thank you. :)

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cally]

10. They are all related

It's men wanting to control women's bodies and make them only sexual objects and breeding machines. Selling women and children, opposing abortion and birth control, not believing that men are equally responsible for children are manifestations of not wanting women control over their own lives and bodies.

[bloom]

19. I agree...

that the men who frequent prostitutes without knowing whether the woman was a sex slave or not:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=341x4986

....And men (and any women) who fund pornography without knowing whether the women were sex slaves, rape victims or exploited in other ways - contribute to the problem.


And then there's the whole advertising culture, also - so much of which exploitive as well - and contributes to that whole attitude.


P.S. And I think there are quite a few people in denial about prostitutes in their own town as well as pornography sold locally or available online that are available due to exploitation, human trafficking, and other unsavory reasons.

[ismnotwasm]

23. I know a prostitute

A heroin/crack addict. She would be a beautiful woman without her addiction. She still has big green eyes and beautiful long hair. Right now, She's about 5'8" and I would guess weighs maybe 100 pounds. She is so fucked up most of the time, she's nearly incoherent. She has abcess scars and track scars all over her body. She has hepatitis C, and is most likely HIV positive. I watch her walk out on one of the "stips" around here and get picked in no time at all. Men in little trucks, men in nice cars. I have a lot of compassion for this woman, as I watch her stagger along the street. She is very acclimated to the street and rejects help that she can't manipulate in some way. She gets hospitalized fairly regularly, cleans up for a time, and then is right back in the life. Why? The money is still there. As bad as she is, as bad as she looks, as insane as she acts at times, men still pay for her sexual services.

Me? I look at her and think, that could be my daughter, my sister, my mother, myself. Would I want that life for myself or any woman for that matter. Fuck no. So what are these men thinking? Not a slam on all men. Not by any means. Not a slam on prostitution even. But we have a culture that supports this destructive, evil shit, that turns it's head, "prostitution the oldest profession nod, nod wink, wink. Like it's all good. We even have male and female sex industry apologists. On this very board. I do understand where they are coming from believe it or not.
But they must live in a different world than the street prostitutes, away from the drugs, the OD's, The diseases, the deaths. The murders. The jail time. The beatings. The rapes. They must not know, as I do, little girls of 8 put into prostitution by their own mothers. Or the women who get out of the life, and try to clean up and have families, and find that they can't have children because of repeated PID. Or the ones who try to leave the life and get their asses kicked right back in it. Or the HUGE sex slave industry, going on under our noses, mostly unaddressed and ignored.
They couldn't be familier with the same sex industry I know. It must be a different one--high end, and all that.

[bloom]

24. how easy it could be...

for someone with little money, mental health issues and whatnot - someone it seems to me that our society should be looking out after - and it's like this.

Maybe it's going to take women to fix it.

[Hello_Kitty]

9. Part of me thinks men should be able to opt out of fathering

Children they don't want, provided they could sign away any parental rights immediately and it's permanent (and I believe there are some places where they can do that - at least if what I've heard on Maury Povich is true!). There's be no going after the kid later to get back at the woman. On the other hand, there are guys who father multiple kids with various women so that would be an even bigger problem. So I'm kind of ambivalent about it, on that point alone.

Plus, I don't get these guys who complain about abortion vs. being "stuck" with child support. I mean, let me get this straight: You'd be pissed if some woman "trapped" you with a child but you'd also be pissed if she had an abortion without your consent/consultation? Why wouldn't you just be glad she went ahead and had the abortion if you don't want to be a father? The issue is often presented in that exact dichotomous form where it really makes it clear that it's all about control. It irks them to no end that there is ONE area where women really do call all the shots.

I honestly believe that patriarchy, and policies influenced by it, can be unfair to men with respect to allowing them full participation in their children's lives, in and out of marraige. But most of the so-called Men's Right's guys are a bunch of misogynistic assholes who do nothing but harm efforts to improve the situation.

[bloom]

11. "patriarchy... can be unfair to men"

I think it's unfair when men expect it to be unfair. I think men who want to participate may have to make more of an effort in overcome stereotypes - but there have been more and more men choosing to do that - so it should be less difficult than it used to be.

I've gotten railed against for sarcastic posts where I suggested men have been less than participatory. The men who have made an effort get rather bent out of shape if anyone suggests they are unable or unwilling.

[WildClarySage]

12. Nope not inevitable. Only if we continue to give our power away.

Since I'm pregnant, I've been doing a lot of reading on the OB model in the US and how differently we treat labor and delivery than other industrialized nations. It's still very dangerous in the US to give birth, partly because of the interventions done and partly because women aren't encouraged to research for themselves the real risks and benefits of the many procedures that drs recommend. We are encouraged to 'trust' the drs and nurses who tell us our bodies can't handle normal l&d. So we give up our power to them.

Just like many women give up their sexual power to men when they say stupid things like "If you love me, you will" and "But all the other girls will do it, maybe I should be with someone else, if you won't" The culture of Coercion is just as denigrating to women as rape, but women aren't encouraged at all to hold onto our power. So some men come along and tell us that we can't give birth without their ok because otherwise they won't support their offspring or be there for them. And they tell us that we also can't choose abortion without their permission. It all comes down to the same thing. Sexual power for women threatens the male domination paradigm, and that makes some men very nervous.

[bloom]

13. I've even noticed

some men around here who have come out and said that they resent women's sexual power over them.

A DUer recommended "The Chalice and the Blade" - by Riane Eisler and I recommend it also - to anyone who hasn't read it yet. It's good to read a different perspective than societies norm.

http://www.public.iastate.edu/~cfford/342Chalice.htm

[kalibex]

15. '...they resent women's sexual power over them....'

Excuuuse me?

Let's parse that. So what they're really saying is, they resent that they feel that instinctive human craving for sexual pleasure that leads to wanting (presumably) intercourse with women (if the guys are straight or bi). I'm assuming this is related to the reality that nobody in this world is guaranteed to get what they want exactly when they want it.

So, they're childishly 'blaming' women for being that which they instinctively feel drawn towards. (Because complete gratification's not 'guaranteed'.)

So, these particular men are blaming someone else simply because these men happen to be sexual beings (and have a cr@p 'EQ').

Ummm...HELLO??!!

:shrug: :shrug: :shrug: :shrug: :shrug:

[lukasahero]

16. This shouldn't surprise you

it is in fact, the underlying precedent guiding the control of women's behavior. In the middle east and around the world, women are expected to cover up so as not to "tempt" the men arounnd them to have sexual thoughts.

Even here on DU, several men supported the idea that a young woman wearing a bikini has not only to expect men staring at and ogling her, but also has tacitly given her permission to be photographed and have her picture distributed across the web.

Is self-discipline not a word anymore?

[kalibex]

17. Yeah, I know...

...but still, when I 'rewind', get back to the essense of that type of world-view, it re-astonishes me anew.

Whatever happened to having whatever feelings one has....but being grown-up about it (ie, having a modicum of self-control)?

So, for that sort, being a man means being big and strong and responsible and in charge....except in anything to do with sexuality? Whereapon they devolve into the equivalent of sulking, resentful, manipulative 5-year olds?

Can they make up their minds, please?

Are they grown-ups....or not?

[lukasahero]

20. "Are they grown-ups....or not?"

You don't really want me to answer that question, right? ;)

Sorry about the previous rant - I think I have been living this side of that astonishment for a few years now and while I'm mad as hell most of the time, I just can't seem to be surprised any more.

[Hello_Kitty]

32. The way it works is

They are rational, level-headed, and pragmatic when it comes to presiding over businesses, running world affairs, controlling the TV remote etc... Much more so than we emotional ladies are, what with our tendency to be compassionate and get the vapors when confronted with difficulties or strife. Not to mention our menstrual cycles. Oh no, we must never be entrusted with Important Matters. We're too "hormonal" for that.


But when it comes to sex it's a totally different story. They are then completely at the mercies of their Id and biology. Of course they shouldn't be expected to control their urges! Perish the thought! We must indulge and coddle them, the poor testosterone-addled babies. It is then that we are expected to be the practical ones who reign them and ourselves in.

[bloom]

33. Did you hear about the ad-ex?

He probably thought he was just saying what most of society believes... :puke:

It's interesting that his field is Marketing - it seems to say a lot about the attitudes of what's driving marketing/advertising.


Women are crap, ad exec tells audience

...Neil French resigned last week from his post as worldwide creative director of marketing giant WPP Group PLC after he had made remarks about female executives created an uproar at an industry discussion in Toronto, Canada, on October 6...

Nancy Vonk from Toronto, a creative director at WPP subsidiary Ogilvy & Mather who attended the event, said French described women as "a group that will inevitably wimp out and go 'suckle something"'.

'You can't be a full-time mother and be a successful creative director'
French denied saying women were "crap," according to a report in Singapore's The New Paper on Sunday....

"You can't be a full-time mother and be a successful creative director. A classic example is me. I haven't seen my son in three months. He's now in the Philippines with my wife," it quoted him as saying."

http://www.boycott-riaa.com/article/18488

[bloom]

18. "nobody in this world is guaranteed to get what they want..."

yep.

You have to wonder if some people believe the beer commercials and then when life isn't like that - they are pissed off? :shrug:


Another sentiment I've noticed - someone was trying to explain why some men don't want to have sex with a woman after he has seen her give birth to his child - by saying that men think of women as "Madonnas" or "Whores" - and they don't want to have sex with Madonnas/mothers.

This goes back to the "Chalice and the Blade" reference. Where in the Goddess cultures giving life was considered to be a positive thing/even the ultimate thing - and if anything would make a women more desirable - not less. (Then along came the Male God - the "Creator" who also happened to be pro-war).

And it also illustrates my original point where some men seem to think that if they think of women as "whores" they are no longer responsible for their offspring (and they want to decide after the pregnancy occurs which definition they want to assign to the woman).

I think all women are created equal and deserve the same consideration and the same support for the children if necessary, etc.

[raccoon]

22. Actually, I think a lot of people do.

"You have to wonder if some people believe the beer commercials and then when life isn't like that - they are pissed off? :shrug:"


After all, companies wouldn't be spending megabucks on advertising if it wasn't effective.

[foreigncorrespondent]

25. There a lot of men in this world...

...who refuse to take responsibility for the children they make.

My mum and dad were divorced when I was a baby. My mum raised both me and my sister without any help from my father. She put her life completely on hold, in order to raise my sister and me. All the while my father went and found himself another wife and began another family.

If a man wants to play hide the sausage and nine months later finds himself with a kid as a result. Then no matter if there is a choice or not he should take responsibility for that kid.

It pisses me off. It takes two to tango, but men can just walk away and leave their mistakes behind them without a care in the world.

That is what my father did. And if men reckon that it is like paying for sex after the fact, instead of a prostitute before hand, then I want to know what the call the jerk who abandons one family and creates another? Is that still like paying for sex after the fact?

[bloom]

26. I don't know

what you should call a jerk like that.

When this topic has come up before - I know a lot of people have said things like "there are bad mothers also". And I know there are. But it's just too damn easy for men to leave the scene if they decide to. For people to argue that all men (or even some men) should have that right - just amazes me.

He should have been held accountable.

If society is just going to throw up it's collective hands and say that men are free to come and go as they choose - I think we should impose a man tax. A man sarcastically suggested that the other day. But I think it's a good idea.

[foreigncorrespondent]

30. I have no idea either!

My dad has two boys from his second (and still current marriage.) Those two boys are the apple of his eye. It doesn't matter what they do (the youngest has done time for robbery, and both are drug addicts.) Yet my sister and I mean shit to him.

He refused to have any contact with my sister when she lost a child during birth, because of a fight my sister had with his wife.

And he has no contact with me, because I have shamed him from going from a life of a denial to living a life the way I was born to do so. And that is his loss, because he will never get to see his youngest daughter truly happy!

It amazes me as well. No man should have the right to abandon a child he created.

And that does sound like a good idea. But with a male controlled world, I guess we will be waiting a long time for something like that to happen!

[Hello_Kitty]

31. Our mother abandoned us

My parents divorced when I was 4 and my sister and I didn't see her again for 14 years, despite the fact that she lived nearby. It sucked - no 2 ways about it. She was a shit for doing that. But she got every bit of the derision she deserved from everyone who knew about it. Contrast that to all the guys who father kids and just take off. There's much more of a tendency to tolerate and even forgive, at least from what I've seen. And a lot more of a tendency to blame the woman involved. She was trying to trap him, you know.

And notice how you never hear of a woman being "trapped" into motherhood, though let's face it, some women bear children in order to fulfill some expectation of their husbands or families, or simply because they don't have the wherewithal to prevent conception. When she becomes pregnant, some mythical maternal instinct is supposed to just kick in, suffusing her body and brain with nurturing chemicals that render her inextricably committed to her child's wellbeing. A cursory glance at the news on a regular basis will reveal that not to be the case. It's sad and wrong.

[Nikia]

34. That reminds me of conversations about "bad" mothers

that I hear at work. I live in rural Wisconsin where people seem to be above average in traditional gender roles. I have heard multiple conversations about mothers who are "bad". The reason that these mothers are so bad is because they let their ex boyfriend or ex husband have custody of their children. Even if these mothers pay support and visit their children, they are described as lazy, irresponsible, selfish, immoral, or cold. Men are expected not to want to raise their children and it is alright if they don't when the relationship fails. Women are bad if they don't.
Although I don't subscribe to this point of view, I admit that on a couple of occaisions, that I have met single mothers socially who didn't have their child(ren) living with them and wondered about the circumstances where as I haven't wondered that with men.

[kalibex]

27. IMO...

Ideally, such a man would be Shunned by the rest of the community...until such time as he fulfilled his responsibility in some culturally-sanctioned way.

For example, $ from his wages could be automatically deducted and sent as child support payments, etc - which I understand, has already been mandated by some judges.

If he refused to hold a job (which I have also heard has been done by some) out of pure, childish spite, I'm sure something else could be arranged.... hmmm...how about reduction of citizenship status back to that of 'minor', with revocation of the adult privileges... :evilgrin:


-B

[bloom]

28. Some judges

are pretty good about - if child support isn't paid the non-custodial parent has 30 days to come up with what is owed or go to jail. But that is generally done if there isn't a job to withhold from (sometimes they get paid under the table or whatever). Definitely - some jurisdictions are more serious about collecting than others.

[foreigncorrespondent]

29. Unfortunately...

...for my mum this was back in the 70's and early 80's. And Australia. Now they automatically take the money from a mans wage, and give it to the mother. But back then nothing. If my mum got the money from him now that he never paid then, she would be able to live very comfortable for the remainder of her life.

But financial support is just one thing. What the father never thinks about is actual contact with his kid/s.

My sister and I never got to meet our father until we were both in our mid to late 20's. Not having a father during the growing up years has had an impact on us. Now, we don't have any contact with him at all.

All I know is, something has to be done to make men realize they are responsible both financially and mentally to a childs (they created) well being.

[MountainLaurel]

36. It happens in marriage as well

I've always laughed at the idea that single mothers can't be effective parents. In my extended family, most married men's sole contributions to parenting were sperm and an occasional belting. Most wouldn't recognize a diaper if you smacked them in the head with it, let alone things like soothing a crying baby, attending a parent-teacher conference or football game, or knowing that your own child has a deathly allergy to bees.

[Nikia]

35. The problem is that a woman always has to choose

and bear responsibility for that decision. A woman who gets pregnant must decide to abort the baby, give the baby to someone else to raise after delivery, or raise the child herself. There is no escaping her pregnant condition without making a conscious decision. If the decision is abort, she only has a few months to make that decision. If the decision is to give her baby away, she only has the duration of the pregnancy to make that decision. If she decides to keep the baby, she and the child might suffer consequences if she changes her mind. Reagrdless of her decision, she must undergo physical changes and undergo a risky physical uncomfortable physical event. Either way, she must deal with the consequences of her decison.
A man does not have an immediate choice. If he is married or in a close relationship with the mother of the child, he might be consulted about what to do. She might want him to take responsibility as a father or accept her decision to abort or put the baby up for adoption. If he doesn't like her decision though, he does have the option to leave the relationship. He might not like the decision, but ultimately it is not his body. If he left the mother shortly after conception, he might not even be aware that there was a fetus or baby.
There are men who do not know that they have children or deny that they do for a while. These men might completely disappear from their child's life completely. Some show up again though. They expect to be welcomed into the child's life, no matter what age they appear. while sometimes this is a good thing for all involved, mother's usually don't have the choice to pretend that they don't have children for several years and then decide that they are ready to be mothers to their children.
Because of biology, child bearing is an unequal thing. While a man might not feel that he has a choice if a woman has his baby and he has to pay support, a pregnant woman doesn't have the choice to ignore her condition either.