Do u think that adult, women survivors of abuse are inherently

[bliss_eternal]

attracted to being models, actresses and/or working in the adult industry? Particularly in cases where the abuse involved molestation or rape?

I've watched more than my share of interviews with women that work in the adult industry. A few notable ones insisted that they were not molested, raped, etc. Years later the women recanted and admitted that they had been sexually assaulted (a couple of them said they didn't remember until later).

By contrast Hollywood is considered a more acceptable career than the adult industry. But this doesn't change the fact that many women are victimized by the 'mainstream' entertainment industry--even the most successful women. It just seems that it might be an unconscious desire for them to revictimize themselves or recreate aspects of their earlier dysfunction by signing up to be a part of a world that will constantly replicate that which they are most familiar.

I was watching the Rosanna Arquette documentary Searching for Debra Winger. While no one really makes the assumptions that I do above or ever asks that kind of question, it ocurred to me after viewing it a few times. I know that it is passion for their art that drives some women that choose acting work, but I wonder if any do so because of playing out old patterns of abuse and dysfunction?

Anyway, anyone care to share their thoughts on this?

Look forward to hearing them! :hi:

[Hello_Kitty]

1. It could be, for sure.

Children who are sexualized learn to regard themselves as objects who exist for the pleasure of others. For girls this is intensified by the fact that the most visibly successful women are so largely because of their appearance and sex appeal. It stands to reason that an abused girl would seek to redirect the exploitation in a way that benefits and possibly even 'redeems' her. So I don't think they are trying to re-victimize themselves at all. To the contrary, I believe they are trying to NOT be victimized anymore, using the only resources they think they have at their disposal. Unfortunately, many of these young women encounter sleazy lowlifes who are aware of this and use it to exploit them yet again.

[Finder]

3. Success does not depend on sex appeal...

and frankly is an insult to women who have found success through hard work. I have never heard Martha Stewart described as a "babe."

Having worked with many survivors, I will agree some find healing by turning the tables and using their "feminine power" to their advantage.

An example is the survivor who becomes an undercover vice detective.

[bliss_eternal]

6. Finder--

I don't think that 'success' in many fields depends on sex appeal. Yes this would be insulting to say about a woman that worked hard to become a lawyer or a vice officer--that worked hard to get there. But in some fields, like modeling or acting in tv or film it does. An actress certainly worked hard to get where they are, but may not be there to begin with if it weren't for their being beautiful. In all fairness this is more the case when thinking of actors in Hollywood television and film. Actors in New York, aren't always as extraordinairy looking as those in the Hollywood industry.

So in this sense, maybe one that is a survivor may still function as a victim and utilize sex appeal or their looks as a means to gain validation through something like the entertainment industry or even the adult industry (pornography).

None of this of course is based on fact--just some theories I was considering and am tossing about for the sake of discussion, and to quell my insatiable need to analyze and over think things. LOL.

I appreciate your participation in my discussion--thank you for your input!

[Hello_Kitty]

8. Martha Stewart started out as a model. n/t

[Finder]

9. Yes, to pay her way through college...

as many young women had to do back then. Modeling, typing or waiting tables were the most popular choices.

[lukasahero]

11. I guess someone once upon a time at least probably called her

a "babe" then, no?

[bliss_eternal]

5. Hi ccbombs--

Quote:
For girls this is intensified by the fact that the most visibly successful women are so largely because of their appearance and sex appeal.

I have to agree. I'm not trying to diminish the hard work of many successful women in the industry--but many of the ones we see on tv and films wouldn't be where they are if they weren't in addition to hard workers, beautiful or extraordinairy looking. Of course there are exceptions to this, as in anything.

If it weren't true, would there be as many 'model turned actress' as there are? Ultimately, Hollywood is selling a fantasy and they want good looking people to do so.

There are more 'basic or ordinairy looking' people today on tv than probably ever before. But this is primarily in ads or commercials--not as much in shows or films. Things are changing, but for women they are still seen as a thing--a beautiful thing to sell their fantasies.

Quote:
So I don't think they are trying to re-victimize themselves at all. To the contrary, I believe they are trying to NOT be victimized anymore, using the only resources they think they have at their disposal.

Again, I agree. I think it is subconscious and they don't even realize they are doing this, when such conditions are at work from an abusive background.

:hi:

[Hello_Kitty]

7. Hey bliss_eternal!

You're right, they don't realize they're doing it. I sure didn't know I was buying into a cultural construct back when I was young and desperate for crumbs of male attention to validate me. I just thought it was the way things were and I had to go along. What a waste :grr:

[Finder]

2. My take on it...

I think a high percentage of females have been abused so any industry will have a high number of survivors. Many female lawyers, social workers, law enforcement officers cite former abuse as an inspiration for choosing their career.

[bliss_eternal]

4. You make a valid point.

I wondered if entertainment may get a higher percentage than most fields, because of the inherent desire to be loved, admired, respected, etc. All assumptions made and immediately validated by turning on tv where celebrity lifestyles have become a media obsession.

Thanks for your input--I appreciate your response! :)

[Heddi]

10. I don't think that the entertainment industry necessarily gets "more"

or a higher percentage than most fields---but rather, by being in the entertainment industry, we (the public) are more likely to know about the personal life of celebrities than we are to know about the personal life of teachers, or firefighters, or the lady that delivers the mail.

Considering that stats show that 1:4 girls will be molested as children, and a significant number of women will be raped by age 30, I think it's fair to say that any industry that employs more than, say, 10 women will have at least one woman who has been a victim of sexual trauma at some point in their lives.

But there are no E! True Hollywood Stories about an ER nurse who was raped in the parkinglot as she got off work at 11pm....but you will hear about various porn stars or movie starlets that were raped or molested. You don't see documentary after documentary about the personal pasts of "every day" women who aren't in the entertainment industry. I wonder if we've begun to think that more porn stars, strippers, prostitutes,, etc, are sexually victimized more than the 'average' woman just because we're more apt to see shows or read stories about their lives...we're less likely to get to that level of personalization with regards to non-celebs. Or we're more likely to think that women who have been victims of sexual assault are 'more likely' to be porn starlets, strippers, etc (or at least more likely than women who were not sexually victimized) than the reality shows. I mean, a shitload of women and girls have been raped, molested, assaulted,etc, in their lives.

I know many women who were raped as children (or as adults) who are prostitutes, strippers, or work in porn. But I know JUST AS MANY women who work in those industries who were NOT raped as children or adults and who have suffered no sexual abuse in their lives. I don't think they're lying---the industries they work in, believe it or not, are very...I don't know how to say it, but there's not the stigma of rape or molestation or assualt in these industries as there is in other places, where you don't KNOW if your coworker has been a victim of a sexual assault. I think that being abused as a child isn't so much the deciding factor as to whether women choose X career over Y, but rather how they dealt with the truama, were they supported/believed by their family, how long did it continue, etc, that really makes the most difference in how they deal with it as adults.

I'm in nursing school and I was completely unaware how often nurses and other health care workers are raped and assaulted on the job and off---I've heard from MANY nurses that working the night shift, or getting off of work between 11pm-5am is the worst time in the world because there are people who hang out in hospital parking lots waiting on late-shift workers coming to their cars. One nurse said that 80% of the nurses she works with have been assaulted while walking to their cars, or to the hospital in the middle of the night. But we don't hear about that like we hear about X porn star being molested by her uncle when she was 6. Of course, the nurse that was speaking to the class didn't get into how many of those 80% had had sexual trauma before in their lives.

Then there's just the thing of personal preference---some women want to do this, or feel they have to do this, etc, others don't. Some people get into nursing. Some get into teaching. Some get into porn. I think that the rape/sexual abuse does play a part, but I don't think the crux of their decision hangs upon their past abuses. But then again, I went through a phase when I was in high school where I felt that if you liked someone, you had to have sex with them. THankfully, I grew out of that phase and understand the importance of loving relationships, etc, but I could see where someone who had been molested, etc, would have a non-conventional way of thinking with regards to sex, sexuality, acceptance, love, like, and all of those other things that aren't clearly spelled out for anyone at all, but are even more confusing when those lines are blurred by early sexual contact, or inappropriate sexual contact

[bliss_eternal]

12. Hi Heddi!

:hi:

You know you bring up something that I really need to consider and factor into the entire scenario. You are SO right! Other industries don't get an E! story about how so many women in their field attract survivors--just the sex industry and in some cases Hollywood. The visual I got in my head when reading that part of your post kind of cracked me up, btw. LOL!

But anyway, thanks so much for sharing your thoughts on this! You've given me something to think about.

[Heddi]

13. Hey no problem! THat's what DU's here for, right?

Give new alternatives, strengthen our opinions with facts and stuff like that. I have to say that DU has been SO helpful--the individual posters who have been there when I needed a shoulder to cry (or rant) on, and the plethora of information that's available here. IT's just awesome :)

:hi:

[Hello_Kitty]

14. All women get the drawbacks of being a sex object

Very few get the "benefits". When I was reading your post I was thinking - though this is not quite what you were expressing in your very astute observations of the sex industry vs. other occupations - about the pissing contests men and women get into on message boards and in real life about the advantages and disadvantages of each gender. It cracks me up when guys claim that women have it better because we can use our "sex appeal" to manipulate men or get them to buy us stuff or whatever. Oh yeah, and we can supposedly get laid anytime we want. Yep, it's just that easy. :eyes: The thing is, these guys are undoubtedly envisioning the small percentage of women who are young, thin, and pretty enough to fit the conventional mold of "hotness". They don't even notice the multitudes of women who work shit jobs for shit pay and STILL have to contend with harassment and the threat of sexual violence. As you say, with no E True Hollywood Story to narrate the struggle, and no clothing or fragrance lines either!

[Heddi]

15. People always have ideas about what they don't understand

I had a very frank conversation with my husband once about what it was like to be a woman, because as liberated and liberal as he is, I really don't think he gets it...I don't think MOST men get it, and I don't think ANY man can TRULY "Get it"--even if they are transsexual or live as a woman. It's an ingrained thing from birth.

I mean, the whole being the only female in a room alone with a man...at work, in an elevator, in a parking lot---that's an automatic "raise the hackles" experience for most women. What it's like to be judged on your clothing. What it's like to have to CHECK your clothing before you go out to make sure you're not conveying the "wrong message", all of that White Male Privelege stuff. I think he understands, but he doesn't have to live it, and hasn't had it shoved down his throat since the day he wriggled out of the womb.

I mean, look at how germaine discussions about child support, or divorce, or any other topic of that nature so quickly turns into the "money grubbing women" "courts are biased towards the mother" "women see men as a walking checkbook" type of argument between the men and the women. I mean, all women aren't money grubbers. All women don't get (or shouldn't get) custody of their children. People always allow personal biases to cloud their opinion on subjects--for me, it's child molestation or rape---I will never find it "okay" for a boy child to be molested by an adult as long as that adult is a hot female teacher. It's wrong if it's a boy or a girl as the victim. It's wrong if the rapist is male or female, hot or ugly. I do not believe that a 15 year old has the mental facilities to truly consent to sex. I mean, anyone who's taken a human development psychology class KNOWS that teenagers (generally) have no future-thought and see themselves as immortal--which is why teenagers are so restricted in activities such as driving, and operating dangerous machinery, etc. They don't have the synapses in place to make long-term decisions involvng sex. And it's an abuse of power, and I think it's fucking creepy that men think it's okay for a 25 or 35 year old to fuck a 14 year old because SHE is hot and HE (the male poster or speaker) would have LOVED it if it happened to HIM (in a juvenille fantasy kind of way).

I think that in the future, if we truly become a progressive species, we will see television and mass media as being the cornerstone of the downfall of our current civilization. TV has become an extention of people's lives. I posted in another thread about how people I knew had MEMORIZED Jennifer Aniston & Brad Pitt's anniversary--how sick is that?!? We know more about the lives of the people on TV than we do about our own family members. We know the names of our virtual neighbors like Seinfeld and Kramer and Elaine, but we don't know the people that live next door to us. We don't know our kids' parents. We don't know the people who work in the cubicle next to us, or who have sat next to us on the bus for the last 6 months.

We get our ideas about war, peace, sex, love from movies and television. We rationalize by saying "Oh, any adult knows the difference between reality and fiction" but do we? Do we know the difference? I don't think we do. If it is on film, and it is broadcast, then it is real, it is the norm, and it is the acceptable.

---
A few years ago, Mark and I went to Holland for a week. On non-cable TV at night (around 9pm), one channel was actually showing a female orgasm with a close-up on the vagina. It wasn't dirty. It wasn't pornographic. Because I don't speak Dutch, I don't know what the context of the show was, but just based on the other visuals I saw I beleive it had something to do with childbirth or human sexuality. At any rate, it was shown, and it was okay. There were POSITIVE images of sex on television and in the culture. It wasn't the wham-bam-fuck-you-ma'am that we see here---on TV, sex is either used for sales, or used for violence, or used for power. Kids are told "oh, sex is bad" but everywhere they go it's tits and ass and cooch. No positive displays of human sexuality. Just sex as a marketing tool. Sex as a weapon. SEx as manipulation. No wonder our country is so fucked up. And we're influencing the world in this matter, of course, since AMERICAN IS THE WAY OF THE WORLD.

---

SOrry...total tangent. I think I'm hypoglycemic--I haven't eaten tonight :)

[Hello_Kitty]

16. No worries. Tangents lead to enlightenment!

I couldn't agree more with about the emotional havoc wreaked upon boys who are molested and exploited by grown women. Sure, the social stigma may be less but it's just sick and wrong for ANY adult to take advantage of a young person. There's also a long and dubious tradition of young men being introduced to sex via their fathers taking them to prostitutes. I watched an episode of HBO Undercover (Warning! Tangent of my own forthcoming) about a brothel in Nevada. Among the many clients were dads and sons. In some cases the sons were being brought there to be deflowered. I didn't see one case where the son wasn't way uncomfortable with the whole thing. As a matter of fact, one boy ended up spending his allotted time talking to the woman in the room because he was gay! How could his father possibly be so oblivious?!?

Have you read Bowling Alone by Robert Putnam? It's an excellent book about the increasing isolation and disconnection of American life. He describes how the advent of TV has sapped America's sense of community and social responsiblility. It's a bit dry and scholarly but it's well worth the read. And all the more indication that some aspects of our culture are NOT good things to be exported to the rest of the world.

[Finder]

17. I am in the relativist camp on the issue.

I do agree that taking advantage of anyone is wrong. As far as the fathers bringing their sons to brothels, for millenia it has been a rite of passage in many cultures. In the past they use to have temple prostitutes and in some cultures, young boys were involved with older men in sexual situations to offer them protection from the power of females. In some it is taking the adolescent out for his first kill or dumping him in the jungle to survive on his own for a week. Such is the ritual nature of human beings.

I do agree with the assertation regarding TV and media but I disagree it has the power ascribed to it. Many people, even Americans, are not couch potatos or hollywood fan types. I think many of the problems cited at times are part of that culture(the disconnect, perhaps) and not American culture per se. Even in this thread there is no distinction between models and what fan types call super models. Most models I know are not particularly beautiful in the "babe" sense. Models are simply palettes akin to a piece of canvas.

[Hello_Kitty]

19. Well If it's been going on for centuries, then it must be right.

Just like war, genocide, slavery, etc. etc. etc....

Robert Putnam doesn't entirely blame TV for our fractured and isolated society but he does marshall some pretty compelling stats and data to show just how powerful a force it actually has been toward that end. Read the book.

Oh by the way, the rest of us are clearly not absolutist about this issue so I find you deeming yourself the 'relativist' to be kind of odd. As is your contention that posters to this thread are unable to make distinctions. The OP was about possible reasons that young women might be attracted to the acting and modelling professions, which led to further discussions about media attention given to women who have become famous at it. They become the role models of millions of girls. Not Susie down the street who isn't all that but she happens to be tall and angular so she models girdles at the JC Penney. Like...uh...we knew that, 'kay?

Sheesh! :eyes:

[Finder]

22. Well I never said it was right...

nor did I say I was "the" relativist, just simply in the same camp. I was not dismissing anyone's views. As far as the Putnam book, I agreed with his general assertations regarding the media. Perhaps my snobbery towards couch potatos and fan types offended you?

Also, I never accused anyone of being absolutist..but now that you mention it...

[raccoon]

18. Great post, especially this paragraph,

"We get our ideas about war, peace, sex, love from movies and television. We rationalize by saying "Oh, any adult knows the difference between reality and fiction" but do we? Do we know the difference? I don't think we do. If it is on film, and it is broadcast, then it is real, it is the norm, and it is the acceptable. "

I think we do too. All those hours of watching, it's got to have an influence.

I have a first cousin who thought THE POSEIDON ADVENTURE (1972)was a true story. I think it was just because at the beginning of the flick there was a few sentences on the screen about the Poseidon going down and there were just a handful of survivors. I bet he wasn't the only person who thought that.

[Hello_Kitty]

20. That's why there are staged "news" events

Like the toppling of Saddam's statue, the "rescue" of Pvt. Jessica Lynch, and Der Chimperor "randomly" pulling a "firefighter" out of the crowd at the WTC rubble to make a stirring speech through a bullhorn. Reality contains too much nuance, complexity, and ambiguity. If it's not a dramatic movie scene, it must not be important.

I think that's why the Right is able to portray the Plame outing as no big deal, by calling her a paper pusher. Undercover agents are always on some big dangerous mission, with bad guys shooting at them around every corner. Like in James Bond movies.

[bliss_eternal]

21. Sometimes I wonder what it may have been like

to grow up outside of southern California. When you grow up here, and the world you live in is cold, ugly, dirty, etc. and you turn on the tv or go to the movies and WHOOOSH--you're transported to another world! A part of you wants to be a part of that world, if only to escape the hostility and ugliness of your everyday experience.

Another part of growing up here is what is the focus on tv here vs. other places. Today EVERYONE sees E! and Entertainment Tonight and stuff like that, so celeb news is a part of everyone's norm. But when I was growing up, it was my norm because I lived in southern California and that is the norm HERE.

As a young girl, I feel I noticed the emphasis that was placed on women in the movies and on tv. People in my world talked about THEM--no one talked about ME, or even TO me for that matter. If you live in an environment where no one pays attention to you--or the only time they do is to take note of your physical appearance(you're so skinny. You're so beautiful), that is what you learn has value. At least this is the way it was for me.

Some of those old tapes still play. Sometimes it's difficult for me to discern if it is me, acting on genuine desires on my part or if it is them in my head--planting the seeds of what attracted THEIR attention.

[Finder]

23. Sounds like you had it rough...

and I hope things have become brighter for you. I have never watched E or those types of shows but I have seen people use soap operas as a similar escape mechanism. The real world is nothing like the soaps or the sitcoms nor do the lives of movie and media stars make sense outside hollywood. I can't imagine why anyone would want to be like Jennifer Anniston or J-Lo (as an escape)since all the media talks about is their pain.

[bliss_eternal]

24. Because YOU can't imagine it--

it doesn't happen or can't exist?

I just attempted to explain how, but this is all you got out of it. You diminished what I said to 'an escape mechanism' similar to someone going to some soap opera fantasyland. Nice. Way to have an open mind and see things from another perspective.

I would comment on the status of my life now, but since your comment seemed insincere and rather condescending, I won't bother.

[Finder]

25. errr...you framed it as an escape mechanism and...

I don't see how my post would be interpreted as insincere or condescending.

I guess I am still on the "list" by the way my words are deconstructed to the point of being interpreted opposite of what was intended. I do sincerely hope you are in a better place than you described in your post.

Peace.

[Hello_Kitty]

27. Self deleted because *aaargh!* Just not even worth it. n/t

[bliss_eternal]

28. ...

...

[bliss_eternal]

29. ...finder

from Webster's Dictionay:
err--to commit a mistake, to be mistaken.

mistake-to misunderstand.

No where in my post will you find the words 'escape mechanism.' *You* infer that.

Again from Webster's:
infer-to draw as a conclusion, to deduce; to conclude; to imply.

label-a classifying word or phrase applied to persons, etc.

Given that 'escape mechanism' is a psychological/psychiatric term, one could deem your assertion as a medical diagnosis or advice. Last time I checked medical diagnosis/advice is inappropriate on these boards.

I'm not at all certain what this 'list' is that you refer to. I don't appreciate people like you, reading a few lines in a post, taking it out of context and assuming that's adequate to know me; to make assumptions about who I am or my life. That's presumptive and rude.

If you are under the impression people here are against you, maybe you could take some responsibility for your antagonistic posts and attitude.

As far as your 'sincere hopes' are concerned--I think you know what you can do with them... ;)

[Finder]

31. Ridiculous....

Please read what I was responding to.

"When you grow up here, and the world you live in is cold, ugly, dirty, etc. and you turn on the tv or go to the movies and WHOOOSH--you're transported to another world! A part of you wants to be a part of that world, if only to escape the hostility and ugliness of your everyday experience."

[bliss_eternal]

32. Why should I?

:shrug:
so you can continue to 'label me' and make assumptions? Diagnose me based on a post? Dr. Finder, shall I presume? Is your practice slow?

:rofl:

[bloom]

26. "the cornerstone of the downfall of our current civilization"

A couple clues:

there are more PR people in Washington than journalists - and how we have PR firms paid to manipulate events worldwide

advertisers/politicians have manipulation down to a science

politicians using the "wackos" (Scanlon's term) in the Christian right to manipulate situations/events

when there is so much manipulated media that it becomes difficult to know what isn't

And of course sex sells


Back to the OP - one thing I read by a psychiatrist was describing much of pornography as the acting out of people's dysfunctions and how people see those dysfunctions acted out and absorb those ideas into their own mind and thought processes. This also relates to your Holland story, above. Because if Non-dysfunctional sex was seen as more the norm - that would be a positive thing. People wouldn't be making other's dysfunctions their own - and not that everyone does - but it seems to me that people who would be drawn to seeing dysfunctional sex on a regular basis would be more likely to want to act that out.

I think there is no question that a lot of people are affected by this. And I agree with the problem of people becoming more disconnected from other real people.

[bliss_eternal]

30. It's really scary when you think about it

the way the msm has become a big 'spin machine' as opposed to the watchdogs of society that they (journalists) started out as.

You made some interesting and inciteful comments here, bloom. I enjoyed reading your post. :hi: