Misogyny.

[bloom]

Over at Reclusive Leftist http://www.reclusiveleftist.com/?p=408 is a post, "Who hates who?"

She starts out with a most disturbing misogynist diatribe some man wrote to a feminist.

Violet Socks writes:

Misogyny. It’s thousands of years old. Men are human, women are sub-human chattel. Beasts of burden. “Women are our natural slaves,” said Napoleon. “God gave them to us to serve us.”

Women denied citizenship, denied humanity. Denied souls. Women mutilated. Women raped, then buried in sand up to their waists and stoned to death for the crime of being raped.

Misogyny is a lot rarer in some places nowadays, except of course for those laws denying women control over their own bodies, and the death threats against women who have used contraception, and the rapes that go unpunished because the woman must have been asking for it, and the crazed killers who dream of torturing and murdering girls and then go out and do it.

But here’s the funny thing. When feminists say (and this, basically, is all feminists ever really say, this is the whole enchilada right here) — Enough! Enough of this! Enough of the raping and the enslaving and the oppressing and the hating! — you know what they hear in response?

“Why do you hate men?”

It happens here. If there is a post about femicide or some other similar thing - some men will predictably come out with their accusations of "men-hating" women. It's beyond ridiculous.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

1. It's kind of like the "reverse racism" accusation that is lobbed at

any person of color who gets too indignant about the treatment s/he has received at the hands of white people. Or the "class warfare" accusation that Republicans throw at anyone who has the gall to mention that the deck is stacked in favor of rich people.

[ThomCat]

2. You are right.

It is one of the privilages of being in the dominant group. The group that does the descriminating usually get to demand that everything be discussed on their terms. So men set the terms of the debate and dismiss anything from the debate that they don't like. (I probably should say 'we' given that I'm a guy.)

One of the big concerns in any discussion about prejudice and discrimination is that the people who represent the dominant side (the discriminators) demand the privilage of claiming the normative standard. "I'm right by default. You have to prove me wrong." They get to be on the offensive, they get to put others on the defensive, and they get to stack the terms and rules of the debate. That normative claim is a powerful place to start.

Your example shows that very well. By saying "why do you hate men" the misogynist is dismissing everything feminists say, and getting away with it. Feminists now get stuck defending their position insisting that they don't hate men. It's a radical change of subject in favor of the misogynists. Feminists are assumed to be wrong until proven right and have limited abilityt to choose the subject and terms of the debate. The mysogynist's statement is assumed to be right until disproven and have some freedom to redefine the debate.

[spooky3]

6. You make an excellent point. That is a very crazy-making

process for those of us who are both in the minority (in a workplace or occupation) and trying to get men (and sometimes women) to see the evidence of discrimination. I can't tell you how many times I've heard the phrase "Well, I am not convinced", to which I have sometimes responded, "it is not my job to convince you. It is your job to see and interpret the evidence appropriately." Of course the messages of that exchange and those that follow are often "she is so unreasonable; you just can't talk to her, etc., etc." and you walk away questioning yourself constantly, particularly given that you are so outnumbered, and society teaches that if a lot of people disagree with you, maybe you're wrong and a healthy person would reexamine his or her positions.

[Branjor]

3. "Why do you hate men?"

Raping, enslaving, oppressing, hating...

A more sensible question would be "Why WOULDN'T you hate men?"

[ismnotwasm]

4. Hate and fear

Fear is at the root. As unchecked fear develops into misogyny it goes unrecognized for what it is because it's supported by our culture. Not only unrecognized, but really standardized.

There are males,--and females who are so conditioned they can't and won't deal with the hate, or self hate.

You take a group of human beings, impose a set of characteristics to them, and then constantly and consistently de-value those characteristics you cause extensive, sometimes unrepairable damage. For women, this has been done to us a very long time.
It's been done to entire cultures, like American Natives. What was valued and valuable culturally was put down, made sub-human. Savage. Natives are still trying to recover, and will never regain what they lost.

It's been done to our Gay brothers and Sisters.

With females and males, the damage is in a feedback loop and as the loop draws tighter it strangles both sexes. But In this battle, you'll notice, it's been left up to WOMEN to change, to try to fix the damage, to literally save society, not men. WOMEN had to fight for basic rights, just to get enough of a voice to address misogyny. WOMEN had to fight for health care, reproductive care, research into cancers and conditions that kills us, safety in our streets.
One of the most interesting--and sad-- examples is MADD. Mothers Against Drunk Drivers---Jesus, why'd it take MOTHERS? Where were the fucking FATHERS? On and on...

Then to be called a man hater. Fuck that. As a feminist, I'm fighting for not just for women, I'm fighting for the whole human race. When rape culture is dominant, abuse is common, torture is acceptable, war is THE answer--all symptoms of a very sick society--- some asshole who thinks courage is having balls comes along and says "Why do you hate men" I don't mother fucker. I love men. But I love the human race much, much more, and believe from the bottom of my heart until women have true liberation, until we have true balance that loop will continue to tighten the damage will continue and grow worse. It's my opinion that misogyny is at the root of all of society's ills.

I refuse to let the misogynist get in my way. There is a world to save and feminism is part of what will save it, if indeed it's salvageable. They can't have my power and if they're too scared to act, or too comfortable to move, or think they aren't part of the problem because they personally aren't a rapist, too damn bad.

And that misogynist driven idiotic question deserves all the scorn and disgust I can heap on it.

[bobbieinok]

10. all the work that women did at the beginning of the 20th century

working conditions for children and women, etc etc etc

As I recall, women were the leaders in creating many of the federal laws and federal bureaus to improve society.

[geniph]

5. You know what the appropriate answer to that question is?

If someone reduces rape, enslavement, oppression, and the patriarchy to that idiotic question, "Why do you hate men?" the proper response is, "So you conflate rape, enslavement, oppression, and the patriarchy with men? You automatically assume that those are men's crimes, and all men are guilty of them? That is what a man is to you? I'd say it's YOU that hates men."

[bliss_eternal]

7. Transference at it's finest...

it's another way to bully someone, by trying to toss off a comment that will throw the other off balance. "Why are you so defensive?", "Why are you so sensitive?", "Why do you hate men?" It's all the same to me.

Everytime you stand up to a misogynistic cyber bully you will hear this kind of thing. Whenever you call someone on their bullshit, it's easier for them to throw it back on you than to have to look in the mirror and own their crap. Why not project their limited ideas onto you? :eyes:

:puke:

[ThomCat]

8. Good point.

Pointing out how this is bullying behaviour is important, and I for one missed that.

[bliss_eternal]

9. Hi Thom Cat...

:hi: Thank you. I think it's easy to miss. I know I still do sometimes, because emotions do come into play and you get thrown off balance. Then you are distracted and miss that they are doing EXACTLY what they wanted to do, throw you off balance and put you in a defensive position.