May I vent a moment?

[mzteris]

The "Duke Rape Case".

I'm one of those silly people that like to see a real trial and real evidence before I make ANY decisions on "guilt or innocence" of any party.

I'm one of those silly people that don't assume the girl is "lying" because she's poor, black, and female.

I'm one of those silly people that don't assume the boys are "guilty" because they're rich white and male.

However, I'm also one of those people who knows that the 'system' is generally (and historically proven to be) biased against poor black females, and for rich white males. So I probably tend to lean towards having a FAIR TRIAL to unearth the truth. (If such a thing as a "fair trial" is possible. sigh.)

It sounds like Nifong made some errors in his case, sure, but I don't think it was malicious or deliberate (to get elected). It sounds like she may have some issues, but I don't know for sure, because I don't trust where THAT information is coming from.


DID it happen? I don't know.

COULD it have happened? Yes, it could have, though it's possible it didn't.

I don't KNOW if they're guilty. I don't KNOW if she's lying or if they are. None of us "KNOW" anything - other that what some very wealthy and powerful attorneys have gotten the media to "report".

And - IMHO - anyone who says they KNOW those boys are innocent and that she's lying - or that she's telling the truth and they're guilty - are lying to themselves. We don't KNOW. Only the people that were in that room KNOW the truth.

[ismnotwasm]

1. You know what?

It happens every single fucking day. Ask any sex industry worker. There are very few who HAVEN'T been raped, attacked, ripped off, exploited, or at the very least, gotten out of some very scary situations.

I'm one of those who think like this;

Rape happens every single day, multiple times a day. Sex industry workers, by the nature of their craft, job, whatever you what to call it are at a higher risk. I will always, and I mean ALWAYS give the benefit of doubt to the sex worker before I assume the "innocence" of a bunch of drunken frat boys at a party. In fact, I've been in some dicey situations myself when I was younger. The difference between rape or attack and getting away is a matter of timing. You think, oh shit, time to go. It can also boil down to pure luck.

I'll also assume the raped one in any situation is the victim way before I assume she is lying.

Evidently that's one more thing that makes me "radical". Shit. It's math. Basic statistics.
I'm open to innocence of the accused of course, but it will never be my first conclusion.

Does anyone have respect for the women in question? Concern? Some do but the general consensus is either she was lying, or she deserved it because of what she does for a living. What the fuck gives young men the idea it's Ok to have a stripper at a party to begin with? Do they respect her, her job, her craft, if you will? Hell no. She's a piece of meat. Those boys were treated as victims From the gate. I stayed out of the Duke threads after the start because I saw which way the wind was blowing.

The concern about lying-- lying about rape is a very valid one, but the bigger picture and I'll scream it to the rooftops is that WOMEN ARE GETTING RAPED EVERY SINGLE DAY. What is being done about it? What? I'll tell you what is NOT being done about. Addressing the very culture/s issues that make it quasi acceptable in the first place. Pisses me off, totally.

I think much the same way in regards to racism. I know racism is prevalent as well as insidious and I assume that a racist act has been committed before I assume any sort of so-called "race card" or "excuse" because of color. I bring that up because I think race, too was a factor in how this case was treated.

The entire case was a soft porn "thought experiment" for the masses. It did nothing to address rape, the danger sex workers work in, why our culture "needs" to use women in that way. or racism---In any kind of productive way.

Anyway, it sounds like you have an open mind, and a thoughful one. If we had more of that, we might get to the underlying problems that create "Duke" situations.

[mzteris]

2. thank you

I agree with everything you say here.

I think sometimes it's "easier" for me to stay in the middle because I have my own prejudices against BOTH sides that I have to struggle against.

Rich white frat boys from Duke. I used to know some. I know what they can be like.

Strippers. I don't like 'em. I think stripping is demeaning. I think prostitution even more so. I think "young women" should do just about anything to keep from starving - except selling themselves as a "piece of meat".

What pisses me off is the automatic assumption that she was lying because she's a poor black stripper.

What pisses me off is that people are taking what these highly paid experienced lawyers are leaking to the media - and taking it as GOSPEL. That they accept statements like "it's been reported", "the defense attorney said", "someone who knows the 'victim/accused' said...." -

What the hell ever happened to cross-examination? Don't they know the defense will ONLY say things that make their clients look good and her look BAD? Don't they realize that until a "witness" is UNDER OATH AND CROSS-EXAMINED - that what "they say" could be just so much bull-sh*t?????


aaaaaaaaaaaagggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

:banghead:

[ismnotwasm]

3. I hear ya

I have a little personal experience (a long time ago) with the sex industry, and know people involved to this day. I can't stand the people who try to paint it as some sort of healthy "choice" I can pull up studies and statistics, but the anecdotal evidence is what can just blow you away. Story after story after story. Women-- and men live with a high risk of violence and disease. That's the way it is. As long as we live in a culture that doesn't value women, that's the way it's going to stay, I don't care what they legalize. It won't change the fundamentals.

I've met some young men lately here, (in nursing no less) who are open to discussing feminism and what it means. I've also listened to young MD's in their residency spout off some disgusting sexist crap.
Not all of them of course, some are also open to feminism, and the numbers of Women MD's heading toward %50 may have something to do with it. Kind of cool, really to watch them interact. It's no Gray's Anatomy.


So there is hope, I hope. Women breaking boundaries and ceilings, getting into, and excelling in profession formally closed to them--Very cool

But poverty gets in the way. Institutionalized sexism and racism gets in the way. It's multi-front war in certain ways just to get cross gender respect, not to mention cross race or culture.

I totally agree with you on how the case was handled. Unbelievable.

[wryter2000]

4. I'll tell you what makes my blood boil about this whole thing

Watching the mother of one of the men saying, "I think people should be aware of how easily this kind of travesty can happen."

I'm sorry, maybe her blue-haired/blond-eyed son is innocent. I don't know. But the travesty isn't false accusations. The travesty is rapes and assaults. That's compounded by blaming the victim over and over and over and over...

[Branjor]

5. May I vent a moment?

This shouldn't be called Feminists group, it should be called Censorship group, because I've NEVER SEEN A GROUP AS CENSORED AS THIS ONE!

[lukasahero]

6. Hence it's lack of activity

When this group was started, there were certain members who it was obvious would wear out their welcome for a variety of reasons. Those members are no longer allowed to post here but they do read everything that gets said here and use the "alert" button extensively.

If anyone thinks our voices have been silenced only with the arrival of the new "ignore" feature, they haven't been paying attention to this group. Thanks for noticing.

[Branjor]

7. YOU BET

I'VE NOTICED!

[ismnotwasm]

8. Kind of trip, huh?

I'm pretty easy going usually but damn...

[Marie26]

10. Exactly!

But we can't talk about that, or this thread will be locked too. :eyes:

[Branjor]

9. More on the Duke rape case...

This is an article by Gail Dines, professor of American Studies at Wheelock College in Boston, who was invited to appear on the Paula Zahn Now show on CNN, ostensibly to discuss the case.

What a farce!

http://www.dissidentvoice.org/Jan07/Dines21.htm

[Branjor]

11. Excerpt from Dines article

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me a couple of dozen times, and shame on me -- but also shame on what passes for journalism on television.

This truism comes to mind after my appearance on Paula Zahn Now on CNN this week to discuss the Duke rape case. I'm not naive about these kinds of shows -- which I know are not really about journalism but about ratings, most easily obtained through sensationalism and playing to the prejudices of the audience. But over the past 20 years I've gone on a number of them to discuss my work as a sociologist on issues of racism and sexism in media. Like many progressives, I do that with eyes wide open, knowing the limits but realizing it's one of the few shots we have at a mass audience.

But this time I foolishly had high hopes after a producer from Zahn's show actually conducted a thoughtful screening interview, unlike any I had spoken with in the past. Most producers typically are uninterested in my views and tend to ask banal questions in these pre-interviews over the phone. They usually don't care about my arguments, but simply want to check that I have a big mouth (which, I admit, I do) and will not freeze in fear when the cameras roll. When they recognize that I am not someone who is likely to cower in the face of adversarial arguments, that's enough for them.

***************************

More at link in previous post. It is a great article!

[Bunny]

12. That's a case study in how the media develops and controls the

message. Paula Zahn is a hairy nutsack, isn't she? :eyes:

[femrap]

15. That was a great article....

I emailed Gail, the author, and offered my gratitude for her work. After receiving those horrid emails from mindless, insulting, and insecure males, I figured she might like to hear an encouraging word.

She really provided great insight into how broadcast journalism opeates today...what hucksters.

Many years ago at the start of Paula Zahn's career on national TV, I heard her asked if she had encountered any sexism on the job. She was vehement with her denial. I have never watched nor listened to her since.

Helen Thomas is a true journalist.

[geniph]

13. The whole thing makes me think about a quote I heard

referencing the O.J. trial - "the cops tried to frame a guilty man."

I don't know, at this point, I'm feeling "a plague on both your houses" - the witnesses on both sides are skeevy and unreliable. Because rape is so hard to prove, I tend to err a bit on the side of the accuser (yes, yes, I know, that denies the entire history of Western jurisprudence) - I mean, to me, claiming rape falsely would be like "choosing to be gay." Why the hell would anyone do that? Out of some deep-seated desire to be treated like complete shit?! It's so ugly, demoralizing, and difficult to try to get a rape convicted, that I truly cannot imagine anyone who isn't batshit crazy going through that just for the hell of it.

Then again, that's not saying she isn't batshit crazy. But even if she is...that doesn't mean they're not slimy little skeezebags, either.

[Katherine Brengle]

14. Exactly -- yes, false reports happen, BUT -- rape is still the #1 most underreported

crime in the history of the universe. The odds that any one accusation is false are pathetically slim, and it usually comes to light very very quickly.

I wish everyone in this country would spend just 3 or 4 days reading some books on the history and pathology of rape so that these ridiculous arguments could end once and for all.

But they won't.

[SemperEadem]

16. not only is the #1 underreported crime in history

but it is the #1 weapon of choice when anarchy breaks out. Pick any place in the world where anarchy rules and you will find a majority of the females of whatever age in that area have been raped.

It is used as a weapon to intimidate, overpower and crush the female and to break the spirit of the men who are related to the female. In Pakistan, it is used as a retaliation by one man who feels he's been wronged against the other who did the perceived wrong... then to make matters worse, the woman has to find 4 men who witnessed the rape in order for it to be believed by the local authorities, let alone prosecuted because of Sharia law, as rape and not adultery. How's that for criminalizing a woman who had nothing to do with the retaliation taking place to begin with?

[Katherine Brengle]

17. I think that the way rape is treated in the criminal justice system is --

the one piece of absolute proof that, psychologically, not much has changed in male/female relations in the last couple of centuries (and in the thousands of years prior).