Does "innocent until proven guilty" apply to rape cases?

[pnwmom]

If so, then why do so many seem to presume the guilt of the Duke students?

[TX-RAT]

1. Should apply to all cases, period.

[TahitiNut]

106. Yep. It's even more important when the charge is hugely offensive.

It's when our emotions run highest that the diligent application of a fair trial, presumption of innocence, jury of peers, and right to confront accusers are most important.

I find the hyperbolic rhetoric on DU to be appalling ... "pro-rape DUers" for example. That's a completely detestible smear of this community.

[NervousRex]

115. It goes farther than that...

Many pissed-off people here are too cowardly to go and fight the real racists and misogynists, so they come here and create them through accusation and arguments of assertion...The immigration threads are full of this shit. I doubt this is really the place to battle Klansmen....and yet there are those who are dressing up any who disagree on the slightest nuance in the pointy headed robes and beating the shit out of them. I'll say it again...its the act of cowards.

[TahitiNut]

220. I tend to agree in spirit if not in the particulars.

I'll merely say that THIS just isn't the place to engage in broad brush vigilantism ... and I'm VERY dubious about the goals (or sanity?) of those who do so.

[Neil Lisst]

236. Thank you. People here who think they're morally superior to others ...

... are the scrouge of DU, and the scourge of the Democratic party. These same relentless dividers repulse the great middle we must have to win elections. I'm tired of trying to explain their excesses to the rest of the world.

[ShortnFiery]

2. It applies to ALL Americans and ALL Cases

Gosh, I hope the above does NOT change. Otherwise, I fear Nancy Grace will be put on Our Supreme Court. :scared:

[ronnykmarshall]

197. You can't escape La Nancy!!

[Neil Lisst]

237. Nancy Grace has asked the North Carolina Supreme Court if she can ...

... personally gnaw the nads off the entire Lacrosse team, guilty or not.

[ixion]

3. that was one of the same points I made here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1089181&mesg_id=1089375

:hi:

[Jigarotta]

4. it is not so much the specific case

but the general attitudes toward rape, that is being talked about. At least it is in my case.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

5. It should.

Doesn't seem to be the case, but it should. Especially since this Duke case is questionable at best so far.

[IndyOp]

6. The issue that causes the problem is 'was it sex or rape' --

IMO we must presume innocence until we know that the particular man charged, was the man who was there. Must be careful here because 75% of rapes do not leave behind physical evidence -- DNA analysis of sperm does not do the job in most cases of providing conclusive evidence of 'who', so the woman's testimony is critical.

When we get to the question 'was it sex or rape' -- if she says rape, I presume rape.

When we get near the issue 'did she have a role in causing it' -- then I proclaim that "Unless she raped herself, then she did not cause the rape, he did."

:mad:

[pnwmom]

11. How can we "presume rape" if it's innocent until proven guilty? Why

should the accuser get the benefit of the doubt?

[IndyOp]

87. How do you resolve the issue if she says 'rape' and he says 'sex' and

no one else was around?

:shrug:

[pnwmom]

94. Each case is different, but I would think it's often very difficult.

And if there's no other evidence, then I guess that means reasonable doubt.

[IndyOp]

162. Which takes us around in a full circle --

I work on a college campus and the number of sexual harassment incidents and sexual assaults and rapes continues to rise from semester to semester. Education, reducing alcohol and drug use, defense training are all needed desperately.

If she says rape and he says sex -- in most cases -- I will be biased to believe it was rape. I am surrounded by it and I see the long-term devastating effects. I also know from good scientific sources that young men who will say 'yes' to having forced a girl to have sex will more often than not say 'no' to having committed rape. I teach Intro Psych and we talk about sexual violence. The young men are often stunned to hear that 'forcing a girl to have sex' is 'rape' -- they think rape is only if the girl is a stranger or only if he hits her or only if she screams and cries and scratches.

I am concerned about nice young men being accused, but I also believe, based on my personal experience, that young men are not being adequately taught and 'no means no' and that 'force of any sort (physical or verbal) is unacceptable'...

:(

[ShortnFiery]

168. That makes one of us.

"If she says rape and he says sex -- in most cases -- I will be biased to believe it was rape."

I hope that the folks who are on the jury do not share such beliefs going into the case.

[pnwmom]

181. good points, and ones that I've been teaching to my sons

but while it may be true among the people you see, I hope jurors don't share your bias.

[novalib]

7. Of Course It Does.

Honestly, I do NOT understand why this issue continues to be brought up.

Of course anyone is entitled to the presumption of innocence.

HOWEVER, women who are raped, in addition to having to PROVE that they had sex against their will also have to DEFEND themselves against charges that "they asked for it" or that they are "sluts", or that they are just "looking to make money".

You tell me -- if someone is robbed, does her or she have to defend him/herself against a charge that s/he "asked to he robbed"??

THAT is the difference between rape and most other crimes.

THAT, and the fact that rape is much more of a violation that theft.

[Jigarotta]

14. if someone is robbed...

"""You tell me -- if someone is robbed, does her or she have to defend him/herself against a charge that s/he "asked to he robbed"??"""

like saying that if you have a cash drawer in your business, you are asking to be robbed.

[pnwmom]

24. If you leave your cash drawer open you're asking to be robbed.

[Jigarotta]

27. no

no way I'd take money from an open cash drawer, ever. There have been 'opportunities' but that has never entered my mind.

[pnwmom]

31. It wouldn't cross my mind either, but it would be asking for trouble.

[Jigarotta]

37. are you then saying that most robberies...

happen when there are open cash drawers?
and that having a gun to force you to open that cash drawer doesn't come into play here?

I don't think you mean that.

[pnwmom]

39. of course not

Each case has to be judged on its own facts, just as each rape case has to be.

[novalib]

47. AND....

even if someone leaves a cash drawer open, and someone else takes money that does not belong to him, which person is guilty?

I have a REAL BIG problem with anyone who says that someone who leaves a cash drawer open is "asking" to be robbed. They are NOT asking for anything.

Does someone who forgets to lock her front door "ask to be broken into"?

Does someone who walks slowly along a street "ask to be assaulted"?

The people who violate someone else's home or person -- THEY ARE THE GUILTY ONES -- NOT the people whose space or persons are violated.

Jeez -- this isn't that hard. Why do we insist on making this so fucking difficult?

[pnwmom]

53. Technically, of course they're not asking. But would a practical

person really do such a thing? Knowing how easy it could be for someone to be tempted? Especially a young, still undeveloped person?

[novalib]

59. Well, A Young "Undeveloped" Person

if he or she succombed to the supposed temptation that an open cash drawer presents, could be excused on account of his or her youth with a relatively mild penalty.

But people do sometimes forget. I forget sometimes to lock my front door. I forget to take everything in from the front seat of my car.

If my car gets broken into because some adult felt so tempted by what was sitting in plain view on the front seat of my car, am I the one responsible?

I don't think so.

And neither is a woman who "tempts" a man so badly that he is unable to help himself and rapes her.

It's that simple.

"Temptation" is never a defense.

It merely demonstrated the lack of control that some adults do not have!

[ShortnFiery]

173. It's understating "the obvious"

that Joe and/or Jane Public Citizen is less likely to believe a woman was raped if she is a stripper and/or a hooker.

It's societal bias but it's very real. If I were on a jury, I'd fight like hell to tuck that away from consideration. But with regard to "a public trial" ... well it was a circus. As we all know. ;)

[pnwmom]

182. I can easily believe a stripper could be raped.I got sidetracked into that

open cash drawer argument, but I definitely don't believe that women ask to be raped.

On the other hand, I don't think all women are so good and pure and rational that they would never ever make a false accusation.

[ShortnFiery]

188. Hey, I might not be able to sit a jury because the word on the

street is that you BRING A BIG GUY as a body guard to every gig.

I just have a very difficult time with these service-type professions. No, I know that I'm not being enlightened, but I must admit, it's not something I'd want any woman in my family to do for a living. Again, I try very hard to not be snotty, but I just don't get it? :shrug:

[Jigarotta]

60. I'm getting confused on what you mean here...

technically, a cash drawer open May happen when a robber is in the viciniity, by pure chance and bad luck. I still stand on most robberies are forcing the drawer to be open. Robbers don't wonder about looking for handy open cash drawers.

[pnwmom]

74. No, it would be an impulsive crime, which I understand does happen.

But I'm really not arguing that the crime is excused by its impulsivity, anymore than the crime of rape would be.

[Catrina]

180. Well, that's the point, isn't it? Most sensible people protect what is

valuable by taking precautions to lock drawers, cars etc. Because they KNOW that while it should okay to leave a drawer open, there is always the possibility a 'bad guy' might come along and this will make it easy for him.

Why do we care more about money and other material things than we do about women? Why are precautions to protect material things praised, while precautions to protect women from rape are called 'blaming the woman'?

[treestar]

15. That is not legally so, but it is just reality that in an acquaintance

rape case, there is an issue of consent. The accusor does not have to "defend" herself, but a lack of consent is an element of the crime to be proved. I don't see a problem here. Why lock men up just because they were accused? Maybe they did have consent. They shouldn't be locked up without proof beyond a reasonable doubt that they didn't.

[novalib]

49. Excuse Me, But

some lawyer suggesting that the victim of a rape "asked for it" DOES mean that the rape victim MUST defend herself.

You can talk all you want about the niceties of the legal system, and how woem who are raped are not legally required to defend themselves.

Meanwhile, those of us who live in the real world know better.

[pnwmom]

57. But is it impossible that a woman actually could have consensual

sex with someone, and then either regret it or try to use the sex for her own purposes? (Revenge, making money, etc.)

Why is it hard to believe that a woman could be guilty of a nefarious act (a false accusation) just as a man could (a rape)?

And I'm not talking about the Duke case specifically, just in general.

[novalib]

64. Let ME Ask You This --

If a woman "consents" to have sex with some guy who says that he loves her and cares for her and respects her and all that -- and THEN she discovers that he is boasting to his buddies about the "b***h" he nailed and that he has no intention of calling her or anything, did she REALLY give her consent, or was it rape?

I say it was rape, and if she files charges, it is NOT because she is seeking revenge -- SHE IS SEEKING JUSTICE! SHe was violated!

[BIG Sean]

73. Huh?...She was lied to by a jerk...but Rape?...No way

NT

[novalib]

76. I Just Bet That You

are a male.

Am I right?

[woo me with science]

175. Well, I am female,

and I can't believe the example you just gave.

So you honestly believe that a woman can CONSENT to sex, but if the man afterward is a jerk and brags about it to his friends, she can then accuse him of RAPE.

You have got to be kidding me.

I think you ought to post this example as its own poll. i wonder how many other people at DU would share this seriously warped perspective.

[pnwmom]

75. Do you think that is a likely situation? I don't think people should be

consenting to having sex with anyone they don't know very well -- well enough for this not to happen.

[novalib]

78. Well, I DOES Happen

People do sometimes have sex with people who betray their trust.

I happens all the time.

The fact that you don't think it should is kind of quaint.

But completely irrelevant.

[pnwmom]

83. It may be quaint, but it's also smart.

And it's relevant, because people are expected to use good judgment, where liability is concerned.

[novalib]

92. "People Are Expected to Use Good Judgment, Where Liability is Concerned"

Gee, it kind of sounds to me as though you are suggesting that a woman who "gets herself" raped failed to use good judgment.

Here we are, once again: Blame the woman -- she is expected to use good judgment, and she didn't.

[pnwmom]

95. No, not with rape. But having consensual sex is what we were

talking about. You're the one who is choosing to call it rape under a set of conditions that I would call "not knowing the guy well enough."

[novalib]

98. Rape Is

sex without consent.

If consent was obtained based on deceit and lies, then no consent was really ever given.

Lying to a woman in order to use her is rape.

[pnwmom]

111. It is unethical, immoral, but is not the crime of rape.

[novalib]

118. If It Is Not the Legal Crime of Rape, THEN

the woman is raped TWICE -- once by the lying, deceitful man, and once by the legal system enacted by a bunch of white, middle-aged men who view women as little more than chattel.

[pnwmom]

122. I don't view women as the weak, gullible innocents that you seem to

think they are.

[novalib]

128. Really?

So you don't view women as weak and gullible, huh?

Then someone else had captured your DU password and posted this:

"But it wasn't only his words that affected her, it was her own sex drive that caused her to listen to him and his false assurances and not to her brain."

And this:

"Her body wanted to have sex, and so she let it overrule her brain, which
should have told her that she didn't know him very well."

I'll agree that you don't think women are innocent.

Which must, perforce, mean that you think they are somehow guilty when they are raped.

[pnwmom]

130. It doesn't make you weak to have a sex drive.

I was saying that the woman is not weak as opposed to the man. That she has a sex drive which influences her, just as he has one that influences him. And that she didn't only have sex to please him, but to please herself.

[novalib]

141. Of Course Not

but what you said is that the woman did not listen to her brain -- only to her emotions.

That is what lots of men think about women -- just a bundle of emotions and no ability to exercise thought -- or good judgment.

Sound familiar??

[pnwmom]

144. Just because some men might have that prejudice does not

preclude SOME women from actually behaving that way SOMETIMES.

[Yupster]

259. Sounds like what women say about men all the time

"He was thinking with his other head," ha, ha ha.

I've probably heard that 1,000 times in my life.

[Name removed]

252. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[pnwmom]

260. Interesting idea. It never occurred to me that people might do that.

[ShortnFiery]

183. This is WILD ...

Whoa! NO! If a woman makes the mistake of altering her consciousness or believing she is "in love" and has sex with at FIRST CLASS JERK, it is still "consensual sex" NOT EVER RAPE!

Wow! There are no tags on this act. This is one of the few areas where either "no" means "no" and "yes" means "yes".

That's a big problem ... some young women feel that if they accuse a man of rape, especially if she ends up pregnant, he'll either marry her OR "like some fairy tale" truly realize how much in love he is with her.

It ain't gonna happen and it is NOT a crime. That's why we teach our young daughters to respect their bodies and their self confidence enough to NOT PLAY with any guy who they don't know very well and trust completely.

[woo me with science]

192. Exactly, and also why we teach our sons

to be EQUALLY careful in choosing a partner and deciding when to be intimate. They need to know there are women out there who would feel justified in crying rape in retrospect if the relationship started to sour and she "felt" he had misled her in any way.

[Neil Lisst]

256. the only thing being raped ...

... is LOGIC, and it's by you

[Catrina]

153. Then put everyone in jail. And watch out all strippers and prostitutes if

that's the standard for rape. Several posters here, claiming to be in the sex business, stated that they 'use' men and laugh at them, and their wives back home, while they take their money! Seems to me, by your standards, these men have been raped.

Divorced individuals can make the same claim ~ 'she was cheating me when we had sex. She lied, told me she loved me. I would not have had sex had I known she was cheating. I was raped'. Good luck with that argument, the entire population of the US and in fact, the rest of the world, either have been raped, raped or both by these standards.

[novalib]

155. A Commercial Transaction

that is freely entered into by adults is NOT the same thing as a "non-commercial" sex.

Are you seriously suggesting that men who pay for sex do so because they think the person whose body they are renting loves them?

The consent that johns give comes when they hand over their money. It ain't about love -- it's about getting sex (and giving) for money.

[Catrina]

169. I think that many men do believe what they are beieng told. It's dumb

yes, but who said it was smart to pay for sex in the first place? The money, a lawyer could argue, means he lost even more than if he were merely lied to. He was both financially, emotionally and physically raped. Of course he'd be laughed out of court if he were to make a claim of rape under those circumstances, and so would a wife who charges that because her husband was cheating on her behind her back, when they had sex and he lied about loving her, that she was raped. Or a man or woman who claims that because their sex partner lied and said 'I love you' they were raped. This is just a ridiculous charge and really diminishes the real crime of rape.

[FlaGranny]

159. Any woman who would sleep

with a man she doesn't know well because she fell for a well-used pick-up line is not very well educated to the world. I can remember my dating years. Many guys will tell you anything to get you to give it up. You have to be smart enough to know the difference. If you feel like having sex and you don't know the guy well, and you go ahead and do it, you'd best just chalk it up to experience. There are two kinds of sex - sex where you are committed to the partner and sex where it's just for the sex. I learned by my late teens to know the difference. The kind of guy who will tell you anything to get into your britches is well known to, I'd say, 99.99% of women, so I find it kind of hard to call it rape. We women, for the most part, are not innocent victims of the sex game. And please note, I am not referring to forced rape. A women who has actually been raped, no matter what her background or previous sex life, is a victim of a brutal crime and has my total support and sympathy.

[novalib]

161. So "Date Rape"

has no meaning or validity for you?

[pnwmom]

167. Date rape, when it is forcible, is certainly rape.

She didn't say it wasn't.

It is your "I was tricked because he didn't really love me" definition that isn't really rape.

[novalib]

199. So Rape is Only Rape if Force is Involved?

How about intimidation when no force is involved?

How about a date who doesn't use any physical force to get what he wants?

[pnwmom]

204. Intimidation IS a type of force. "Sweet talking" is not.

[Neil Lisst]

261. the seminal moment is WHEN the rape happens, not when you get

... lover's remorse

You gave you consent when you open up and said "come on in." You can't retract it 3 days later because you got played by some guy you should have known better before hopping in the sack.

Either you are a grown up, or you're a child who requires society to treat you like you're not mentally all there. Which do you want, because you can't have both?

[FlaGranny]

216. Of course it does. Date rape is rape.

I did't say a word about supporting date rape. I'm talking about a sweet-talking male of the species out for a good time. If he begs and the woman complies, that is not rape, no matter what kind of sweet talking he did. Now if he forces the issue or uses a weapon to get his way, that is rape.

[novalib]

226. Narrow Line Between "Forcing the Issue" and "Sweet Talk"

There's sometime a real narrow line between what some man would call "sweet talk" and what some woman would call "forcing the issue".

I still suggest that a woman may say "Yes" and not be really consenting to have sex.

And it may be with a guy she thinks she knows quite well.

[pnwmom]

230. A woman should never say yes if she's not really consenting.

If she has any doubts about the guy at all, she should say no.

[novalib]

235. Well Of Course

Here's a profound insight into the obvious:

"A woman should never say yes if she's not really consenting. If she has any doubts about the guy at all, she should say no."

And men should never rape women.

But sometimes women DO say yes when they are not really consenting. Because sometimes that "Yes" is only given because of soemthing the man has said or promised. And, of course, MEN SHOULD always keep their promises and mean what they say.

But, of course, sometimes MEN do not do as THEY should.


And the women who have said "YES" because they believed the men are just "sluts" or "high school girls who slept with 200 boys", or "women who lack self-respect".

And the man, laughing about how he was able to trick the woman, just walks away -- he's OK, because, after all, the woman said "Yes".

It makes me sick.

[pnwmom]

239. No, women who say yes because they believe a man are making a mistake.

And maybe a serious one. But they can't claim rape.

(And how would a woman EVER hope to prove this kind of claim in any kind of reasonable trial?)

[novalib]

241. Just Like Women Make "Mistakes"

when they decide to wear certain types of clothing or to be places they "shouldn't" be?

The woman's claim could be proven based on the facts of each case, and people, using a reasonable woman standard, could decide, based on the fact, whether or not consent was in fact actually given.

[pnwmom]

249. No reasonable prosecutor would prosecute such a case.

And if there were, why not use a "reasonable man standard" about whether consent was given?

[Yupster]

263. So no means no, but

Yes means no also if the woman later decides the guy was a jerk?

That's a pretty hard standard to hold a guy to.

Is there a statute of limitations?

If she thinks the guy is okay, but six months later she decides he's a jerk, was it still rape?

[pnwmom]

166. You said it, and very well, FlaGranny!

[ShortnFiery]

186. My mother calls it "Campaigning" when boys say anything to have sex.

I love that word! Yeah, let the *campaigning* begin - it's so fun to watch but best to let your daughters know - it's a waltz. ;)

[pnwmom]

190. Right. We have to teach our daughters not to fall for that.

[ShortnFiery]

198. Now that's right ... and teach young men to LISTEN and abide by that. :-)

[pnwmom]

201. I've also told my son that, even if they were both drunk, and the sex

seemed consensual, he could end up in trouble.

[ShortnFiery]

203. That's excellent. And for heaven's sake if you are going to get

drunk, which you should NOT (go too far and get shit faced - but they all do at some point), then have a condom in your wallet (or purse for daughters) to forgo 18+ years of obligations! Good for you. :applause:

[pnwmom]

206. Right. And thanks for the applause.

It's tough being a parent. It can be pretty scary.

[woo me with science]

196. excellent points, especially

"We women, for the most part, are not innocent victims of the sex game. And please note, I am not referring to forced rape. A women who has actually been raped, no matter what her background or previous sex life, is a victim of a brutal crime and has my total support and sympathy."

Thank you for another voice of reason in this thread.

[Yupster]

258. Woman are full;y capable of choosing who

they have sex with.

That means that they will sometimes misjudge other people's character.

It happens. It's not rape though if you consented.

[treestar]

207. She might have failed to use good judgment, but that would not

mean that the rapist would not be punished and would not go to jail.

Apples and oranges. Using good judgment is about preventing the crime, but if you didn't, and it occurred, it is still a crime.

It just has to be proved, that's all.

[Yupster]

257. I don't either, and I never have, but

I also recognize the right of people to have sex with a different person every night if they want to.

I'll call them irresponsible, but that's just my opinion. It's their life.

If a person chooses to have one night stands with 100 different people, it's bound to happen that some of them will turn out to be rotten.

I can't see any reasonable person believing that a woman could after the fact sort the men she had sex with into categories.

These guys were nice guys and I liked having sex with them.

Those guys turned out to be not so nice, so I'll charge them with rape.

That's too Twilight Zonish to even contemplate that someone would defend that.

[Catrina]

89. And, if we reverse that situation and the woman goes around boasting

to her girlfriends about the 'b*****d' she nailed and she has no intention of calling him etc., did he really give his consent, or was it rape?

I say those are the breaks ~ male or female. Because if that's rape, almost everybody in the world was raped and that diminishes the real violent crime of rape.

[novalib]

93. Seriously?

That may happen -- some guy needs to be talked into having sex. And so, the woman promises him that she respects him and really, really cares for him, and that she'll call him in the morning.

After which, the guy agrees to have sex with the woman.

But it is FAR more likely that the guy talks the woman into having sex, along with assurances that he cares for her.

[pnwmom]

96. And neither case is rape.

[novalib]

102. Both Cases Are Rape

sex without consent is rape.

If lies and deceit were used in order to obtain the consent for sex, then consent was not really given. The party that was lied to was simply used by the deceitful party.

This is really quite simple.

[pnwmom]

112. Show me the state where that alone meets the criminal definition of rape.

[novalib]

117. I Said Earlier --

that you or anyone can else can talk all about the niceties of the American legal system (you know, the one where a judge refused to grant a temporary restraining order to a woman whose husband THEN poured gasoline all over her and set her on fire!.

But EVEN IF there are NO laws that support my view, THAT only demonstrates how fucked up our legal system is, and how it stacks the deck against women!

Sex without full consent is Rape.

[pnwmom]

119. Consenting to have sex with someone you don't know very well

is stupidity.

And that's not a crime, either.

[novalib]

123. People You Know Well

also lie.

in order to get sex.

And it's still Rape.

If it isn't, the victim is raped twice.

[pnwmom]

125. That kind of definition is an insult to women who really have been raped.

And so a man who has stopped loving his wife, but continues having sex with her, and still tells her he loves her, is actually committing rape.

[novalib]

129. If She is ONLY having sex with him

because he says he loves her, then YES.

Sex without full consent is rape.

[pnwmom]

135. By your definition,most divorced men are guilty of rape of their ex-wives.

At least on some occasions during the breakdown of their marriage.

[novalib]

139. Please

Now you are either purposely misreading my posts OR just being silly.

[pnwmom]

145. Not at all. You said that it is rape if a man falsely tells a woman

he loves her and on that basis they have sex. But that probably goes on in decaying marriages all the time.

[novalib]

147. WRONG!

What I sais was that if a woman "consents" to sex BECAUSE a man falsely tells her that he loves and cares for her, then the man is a rapist.

It has to do with the woman giving consent -- NOT with the mere fact that the man has lied to her.

If a married woman has sex with her husband (even though he does not love her), she may have other motivations for having sex with him.

It has to do with REAL CONSENT -- not just with what the man said.

[pnwmom]

151. And that is also what I was saying. A single woman could also give

consent for reasons other than the false assurances a man may be making; and one reason might be simply that she felt like it.

Even if she doesn't really want to admit this to herself.

[novalib]

154. If A Woman Consents to Have Sex

and if her consent was freely given (no coercion -- including not being surrepetiously given drugs) and true (not given based on lies or deceit), then there is no rape.

Are you suggesting that a woman who has freely and really given consent would later yell "rape"?

[pnwmom]

158. I can imagine rare situations where that would be the case.

And a lot less rare if women were to accept your definition of it being rape if a woman has sex based only on false assurances that a man loves her.

[FlaGranny]

221. Yes indeed. A gal I went to high school

with was on about her 200th sexual episode. This time it was with couple of guys from school. When she got pregnant, she claimed rape so her parents wouldn't punish her. She slept with practically every boy who would or could up until then. She bragged about the episode with the two guys and all the other conquests she made until she found out she was pregnant. Then suddenly it was rape and two young high school boys went to prison

[pnwmom]

225. And that's a motivation we've overlooked in this thread: some girls,

even women, might be motivated by fear of their family's reaction (e.g., in the case of pregnancy) to accuse someone of rape.

[woo me with science]

205. And who measures this professed love and caring

and decides whether it was real? What if they have different ideas about what a "caring" relationship looks like? Who decides if he lied? Do you have objective criteria by which to decide, in retrospect, after CONSENTING, that his assertion of "caring" was false?

This is just sad. Thank goodness our "rapist" judiciary considers women to be adults and capable of making their own decisions.

[novalib]

229. Any Reasonable Person

We use a "reasonable person" standard when judging whether or not sexual harrassment has occured on the job.

We should use a "reasonable WOMAN" standard to measure whether or not a man's profession of caring, etc. was genuine or not.

I think I hear you suggesting that a woman saying "yes" to sex ALWAYS means that she is doing so freely. And so, I guess you'd say that if a woman says "Yes" to having sex, she is NEVER being raped.

I disagree.

[pnwmom]

231. I think most reasonable women would say that if she says yes,it's not rape

assuming he hasn't put a date rate drug in her drink, or something

[novalib]

238. I Think Otherwise

I think, first of all, that EACH case of alleged rape should be heard on its merits.

And I think a judgment made, on the basis of the facts in each case, should be made by reasonable women -- or by men who use a "reasonable woman" standard.

And I think that men should NOT be presumed innocent of rape simply because the woman may have "consented" to have sex.

The very question of whether or not consent was or was not given should be made by the jury or the judge -- based om the FACTS of each case.

Otherwise, many men who coerce a "yes" from a woman will get away with rape -- simply because the woman said "yes".

[pnwmom]

244. I think you should make any lover sign a contract agreeing to your

definition of consent. Just so that he knows.

Or else you should wait until you're married, and put it in your pre-nup.

[novalib]

245. Thanks

thanks for the advice.

[Neil Lisst]

270. I hope you don't date men without giving them a written warning.

Detailing your unusual views that NO means NO, and YES means NO, too.

[Yupster]

273. The woman saying yes

sure seems like a good reason for the man to "get away with it" to me.

[Yupster]

271. Are you really being serious?

or are you putting us on?

I have trouble believing you really mean this.

[Neil Lisst]

268. Who judges the love issue? A panel of Nancy Grace, Gloria Allred

and a randomly selected member of NOW.

[woo me with science]

187. Well said. nt

[Name removed]

266. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Catrina]

132. You only need one case to test your theory that a consensual

sexual encounter between two adults, if the relationship goes no further, becomes rape.

And following on that thought. If you are correct, then strippers and prostitutes, both male and female, might find themselves charged with rape also. If the client believes them, by your logic, they were lied to and therefore robbed, and maybe raped.

I don't think this is a good argument at all for rape ~ in fact I'm certain it's not. And while you may be right that it happens more often with men being the deceivers, in the world we live in today, women are often the aggressors, I know a few personally, when it comes to demanding sex.

[novalib]

143. If a Woman is "Demanding" Sex

and obtains it through coercion -- without the true consent of the man -- then guess what?

She has raped him.

See?

Sex without full consent is rape.

"Agression", per se, has nothing to do with it.

It has to do with consent. And with not obtaining a "false" consent.

[Neil Lisst]

265. rape charges in the lesbian community will rise if this is the standard

If you lie about your emotional commitment to get sex, you're a rapist.

I have to admit, of all the dumb things I've seen written at DU, that one is the dumbest.

[pnwmom]

116. Don't forget that the woman has a sex drive, too. And that that may

have clouded her judgment, and have influenced her to give her consent. So she had consensual sex with a guy who said he loved her, but didn't. But it wasn't only his words that affected her, it was her own sex drive that caused her to listen to him and his false assurances and not to her brain.

[novalib]

121. JESUS H. CHRIST!

"it was her own sex drive that caused her to listen to him and his false assurances and not to her brain."

How is that any different from saying, "Women are nothing but pure emotion. They can't think. They can only Feel."

The FACT is that the guy LIED.

It's like going to a buy a car, and the car dealer quotes a price for a brand new, fully operational car.

You CONSENT to give him your money, but then you discover that the car has 50,000 miles on it and is a lemon.

Did you really consent to give him your money, or were you deceived -- tricked -- into givihe guy what HE wanted, while you were left just holding the bag?

[pnwmom]

124. Her body wanted to have sex, and so she let it overrule her brain, which

should have told her that she didn't know him very well.

[woo me with science]

209. No, it's not saying that women can only feel.

It is saying that BOTH men and women make decisions based on a combination of logic and emotion, and both sometimes will make mistakes. The argument is AGAINST a double standard. It is saying that women have as much responsibility for their sexual choices as men do. Sex feels good to women, too, and sometimes poor decisions happen as a result, just as they do for men.

[FlaGranny]

222. You, my friend, are extremely naive,

and, from your posts, seem very young and inexperienced. For god's sake, never have sex unless you have a signed marriage contract. Otherwise, watch yourself, and if you are invited to have sex with an acquaintance or a stranger and decide to do it, but afterwards decide you shouldn't have done it, I hope you don't blame it on your partner.

[Neil Lisst]

274. If you will have this discussion with all men you know, you'll never

... have to worry about any of them ever accidently having sex with you, or misrepresenting himself to do so. Most would leave shoe marks getting away from you upon learning your views on retroactive revocation of consent.

[NaturalHigh]

133. If she consents, it is not rape.

I think you are bringing some personal issues into this conversation. Regardless of those issues, what you described is not rape, and no court or legal scholar would ever define it as such.

[novalib]

137. Most Men Would, I Bet,

agree with you that the situation I described is not rape.

And perhaps, legally, it is not.

So the woman is raped twice -- once by a lying, deceitful sob who is only interested in using the woman.

And again by a legal system that winks at men who lie in order to obtain what the law calls "consent", but what most would call "being tricked".

[Exultant Democracy]

149. "So the woman wasn't raped at all"

Would make more sense then "So the woman is raped twice." We live in a free society, what kind of nut job world (NJW) would we live in if we had to be afraid to stop dating someone for fear of being called a racist.

[Catrina]

165. I'm a woman and I agree with him, and I just asked a couple of my

girlfriends here and they laughed at the notion that just because a guy doesn't mean it when he says he loves you in order to get sex, and you decide to go ahead based on that assurance (and MAYBE because you, a WOMAN (gasp) like sex also, it later becomes rape!

There's such a thing as common sense. First, never believe a man you barely know who is hoping to get sex if he tells you he loves you. But if you want sex anyway, and you're an adult, grown-up woman, then go ahead if that's what you want, there's no law against it. But don't try to blame him later for your decision. It won't hold up in court, or even with most thinking human beings.

People shouldn't lie, but they do. That's the reality. Most of us know that. Then we assess the situation and make a decision. To then reject the notion that a woman is capable of making decisions for herself regarding such a scenario, is an insult to women, imo. But none of this is rape. It's called 'well, too bad, so we had sex and then he didn't call'. Having sex isn't a lifetime commitment in modern society. There's no contract, is there?

If it IS rape, then I have to get back to all my girlfriends who spent a day or two bemoaning the fact that the 'guy said he'd call but, guess he was lying'! They never thought they were raped. They'll be very interested in this, so will some of the men I know. Sorry, this is just getting silly. :eyes:

[woo me with science]

212. LOL excellent response nt

[Neil Lisst]

275. No, she hasn't even been raped once, muchless twice.

The word you're looking for is "disappointed."

She's been disappointed twice.

Thank God you'll never sit on a jury for any rape case.

[LittleClarkie]

278. That's stretching things to the breaking point

Like the conversation I had with a fundamentalist where throwing children into a volcano was "abortion"

Whatever the word you're looking for is, it's not "rape"

If the woman says no, and the man forces himself on her, that's rape.

If the man lies to get what he wants, he's deceitful, but he's not a rapist.

[ShortnFiery]

179. That is the most over the top thing I've ever read at DU

"If a woman "consents" to have sex with some guy who says that he loves her and cares for her and respects her and all that -- and THEN she discovers that he is boasting to his buddies about the "b***h" he nailed and that he has no intention of calling her or anything, did she REALLY give her consent, or was it rape?

I say it was rape, and if she files charges, it is NOT because she is seeking revenge -- SHE IS SEEKING JUSTICE! SHe was violated!"


Do you really believe that?!?

:wtf: over?

[novalib]

242. The "MOST" over-the-top thing you've EVER read on DU??!!

Really??!!

I'm amazed.

[ShortnFiery]

248. Yeah, I guess that I don't get around much :-)

[lumberjack_jeff]

202. Your post is an excellent example of why consent must be established

You have every right to say "no", but not retroactively.

What you're describing isn't rape, it's buyers remorse.

[woo me with science]

213. "You have every right to say 'no,' but not retroactively."

Excellent point that deserves to be in the subject line.

[Neil Lisst]

243. OMG! Talk about dangerous beliefs!!

Your comments are the kind that are so troubling. YOU regret having sex because YOU feel you were duped, so YOU get payback by calling HIM a rapist.

No. He's a guy, and you are a woman. You had sex, as adults, and now you want society to treat you like a child and him like an adult.

Forget it. Not happening.

[Yupster]

250. Boy - you really lost me there

If a woman thinks she's having sex with a nice guy, but she later finds out he's not a nice guy, then it was a rape???

Huh??

You make it sound like the man owes the woman something like love or a phone call for the priviledge of having sex with her.

Maybe they were just horny and wanted to have sex? Or maybe she was or maybe he was.

[ShortnFiery]

176. Well anyone grabbed better sure as shit CONSIDER fighting like hell ...

You don't know when someone grabs you whether they're a rapist or a murderer.

No, the alleged rape has to be PROVEN beyond a reasonable doubt.

Again, "Innocent until proven guilty." Well, unless you're the target of a Nancy Grace tirade. :P

[lumberjack_jeff]

23. Actually, yes

If I had a grudge against the local panhandler, using your logic, it would be easy to give him a marked $20 and call the cops claiming to have been robbed. Alternatively, if I regretted having purchased a car, I could get out of it by telling the cops that the seller stole the money.

If consent is in doubt, that fact needs to be established to determine if a crime was committed.

"I'm the victim here! He has my money! Isn't that proof enough that I was robbed?"

[novalib]

52. Yor Are a Man,

aren't you?

[lumberjack_jeff]

189. What's a "yor"? n/t

[novalib]

200. Crucify Me!

Yor = You're

[lumberjack_jeff]

211. Thanks, I thought it was a typo. It's actually just stupid.

My gender has as little bearing on the topic as your gender is relevant to your views.

A man who agrees to sex with a woman who later regrets that decision is not a rapist.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

131. The problem is

That "asking for" is a nebulous phrase: it's a conflation of "making more likely" and "rendering less reprehensible".

There are clearly certain causes of action which will render someone more likely to be raped (or robbed); that doesn't mean that those actions are a justification for rape or robbery.

If you leave a cash draw open then you are making it more likely that you will lose your money, but that doesn't mean you have any less grounds for complaint against the person who stole it.

[pnwmom]

136. that's true

[geniph]

146. Exactly!

I'm glad to see someone state what I've been trying to say. In fact, I'm so glad that I'm going to repeat it here, because it bears repeating:

"There are clearly certain causes of action which will render someone more likely to be raped (or robbed); that doesn't mean that those actions are a justification for rape or robbery."

The guilty party is the person who CHOOSES to break the law. A victim of crime, no matter how careless they might have been, is NOT culpable in FORCING that criminal to commit a criminal act. If the victim bore some of the responsibility, then how do we explain the people who, with the same temptations, do not commit the crime, whether it be rape, robbery, assault, whatever.

The problem with rape is the burden of proof is very difficult in some cases to establish. It comes down to which person the judge or jury believes is telling the truth, and which is lying. It's generally easier to establish guilt in other crimes. It is very difficult in rape. But I will say this: very few women are willing to go through the nightmare of a rape trial for a false complaint. Yes, it happens. It is very, very rare. A rape trial puts you through a unique kind of hell that no other trial subjects the victim to. You have to REALLY want the person you're accusing convicted, badly enough to put up with all the personal attacks you'll suffer. In very few cases is there any kind of judgement (monetary settlement, whatever) that would make a false claim worth this living hell. We can cite the cases where it's happened (a false claim) simply because they are so very rare. But how many people never pursue a rape accusation at all, because they know how ugly it is for the victim? I would venture to claim it is, in fact, the majority of rape victims who never go to trial. I know men who were raped. I know none personally who actually made the accusation public - because men who are raped suffer, if possible, even more vilification than women do.

[pnwmom]

156. The argument can be easily turned around.

Why would a woman make a false accusation of rape, knowing the hell that she would likely be put through?
Why would a man rape a woman, knowing the hell -- including imprisonment -- that he would likely be put through?

[geniph]

224. Because it ISN'T the same for the accused rapist

they are not put through even remotely the same degree of hell as a rape victim. Not even remotely.

And your first statement was exactly my point. Almost no one DOES make false accusations of rape.

[pnwmom]

227. An accused rapist IS put through hell, in the trial, and afterwards

in prison. And innocent men have been accused and imprisoned.

[pnwmom]

228. And show me the statistics for your claim that almost no one is

innocent when charged with rape.

[Yupster]

277. Rather a thousand guilty men should walk free

than one innocent man should be wrongly convicted. Someone famous said something like that.

[Connie_Corleone]

8. Only in a courtroom.

The general public doesn't have to go by that standard because we're not on the jury. It would be nice, but that's not the real world.

[treestar]

12. OK, unless you start condemning the verdict as a miscarriage

of justice when it doesn't turn out your way.

[Connie_Corleone]

16. O.J. Simpson. nt

[CPMaz]

19. Agreed.

In a court of law, in all cases, "Innocent until proven guilty" HAS to be the standard.

In the court of public opinion, people can think what they want, because we're not the ones determining guilt or innocence as a legal matter.

[noonwitch]

9. I haven't assumed anything-I hate seeing cases tried in the media

In the long run, the truth can't be discerned through all the spin and bs.

[stanwyck]

38. This time, it really is the media's fault

they've been shameless. This is a matter for the courts. The bizarre world of sensationalistic journalism - asking people who know absolutely nothing factual what they "think" about a reported crime is wrong. It's a virus. I heard students who barely knew the men involved stating their opinions on a crime that may or may not have happened. I heard "legal experts" weighing in on what they think happened. Again, no facts. Just endless speculation.
It's a perversion of our system of justice.
Judge the defendants in court.
That's the American system of justice.

[pnwmom]

44. I think a lot of the fault may be on the part of the prosecutor,

actually. He's made a lot of mistakes in what appears to be an eagerness for publicity that could end up hurting the accuser in the long run.

The defendant's attorneys, too, have been positioning for media attention, but that's their job. The prosecutor's job is to not put on a case until he's got all his ducks lined up in a row.

[stanwyck]

120. True. There's plenty of blame

and some of it is our own dark nature that finds stories about sex, race, and class too irresistable. Even when the facts are unknown.

[treestar]

10. It does, but on the internet you will find people who presume

guilt from accusation, not only on rape cases, but any case.

You post an article on the Duke case and get results stating how horrible it is that they have done this.

There was a case where some accusor had to watch a film (somehow the alleged rape got filmed) and on one board tons of condemnation of the courts for "victimizing her a second time." Yet no one realized that the tape could help her case as well as hurt it, and the defendant's right to confront the witnesses and evidence was somehow an evil thing that "revictimized" the accusor. Then in that case, the defendant was acquitted. Another "miscarriage of justice."

Some people are just so stupid they think their personal take on anything is a "fact."

[ComerPerro]

13. I'll admit, its bias on my part

I have no trouble believing that drunk, rich lacrosse players could rape a stripper at a party while drunk.

I have no trouble believing that they could view her as nothing more than an object.

And I have no trouble believing that they would lie about it, and that their friends would lie to protect them.

[pnwmom]

20. It's just as easy to believe that a stripper came to the party already

drunk or high.

That she could have been having a blackout during some part of the day.

That she really might not know who raped her. That some of the injuries might have occurred before she arrived.

That she saw an opportunity to make some money. (According to the Newsweek article, there's at least one attorney already preparing a civil case.)

I also have no trouble believing the situation that you posit. But none of us know what really happened.

[ComerPerro]

29. If you sexually assualt someone who blacks out, its still rape

And please believe me when I tell you that asshole white guys are very curious about "what its like" to have sex with minorities.

[pnwmom]

34. By blackout I am referring to a person who appears to be walking around

and functioning, but later has no memory of that period of time. It's not the same as "passed out." Depending on whether the accuser was under the influence of anything that day, she could have had a memory loss either before, during, or after the party that affects her recall of what actually happened.

[ComerPerro]

35. By that count, though, so could the accused

[pnwmom]

36. true enough

[Caoimhe]

22. You mean, this bothers you?

Ryan McFadyn, one of the Duke lacrosse players under investigation for rape, has been suspended for sending an email to friends that is just over-the-top psycho, proving that you don't have to be all that bright to get into Duke University.

“I plan on killing the bitches as soon as the(y) walk in and proceding to cut their skin off,” wrote McFadyen, a 6-foot-6, 225-pound Atlantic Coast Conference honor roll player who was one of five Duke players from the exclusive Delbarton School in Morristown, N.J., adding in vulgar terms that he would find the act sexually satisfying. The e-mail was signed with McFadyen’s jersey number, 41.

hmm.. sure sounds like the typical innocent choirboy to me.

[ComerPerro]

26. Yep. Exactly like that

[pnwmom]

28. That is certainly a piece of evidence that should be considered.

In a court case in which innocence is presumed.

[Jigarotta]

80. I'm biased as well.

I have no trouble believing that rape victims are treated unfairly. generally.

[FlaGranny]

223. I would have no trouble believing those things were possible

either. No trouble at all. My first reaction is: That's horrible. Seecond reaction: If true lock them up and throw away the key. Third reaction: Wait for all the evidence befor making judgments.

[Dinger]

17. It Should Apply To The Victim Too

[Touchdown]

18. NO. All men are pigs and potential rapists

...even the gay ones. If they're male, they're guilty. Period.

[Caoimhe]

25. Oh please

I've heard nobody say that.

Have a little whine with your red herring.

[Touchdown]

30. Get out more.

I have. Got a penis? You're an asshole and deserve to be punished.

[Caoimhe]

41. LOL

Methinks your misogyny is showing.

[Touchdown]

43. At least I have something to show.

So, unless I say something that would make you nod, then I'm automatically a mysogynist, right? Thank you for proving my point. Thinking in stereotypes is not liberating, no matter who the target is.

[Caoimhe]

46. Thanks

you just proved my assumption right.

[Touchdown]

50. I added more, and edited the name. Read it again

Judgementalism is a terrible thing to waste on insignificant little me.

[Caoimhe]

58. perpetuating your absurd statements

with continuing absurd statements will get you nowhere. Congratulations on becoming the very first DUer that I've ever ignored. Sorry, I don't buy your theory about how women view "penis holders". I happen to have a loving husband who doesn't feel that he is a victim of evil women, or that having a penis makes him an asshole. He knows I don't blame him for the evils of the world perpetuated by these "penis-holders", and he doesn't pretend he is so maligned. I honestly worry about the women in your life, and hope you never have daughters. touché

[novalib]

68. Self- Delete

[Jigarotta]

33. are you saying that about my husband, my family of men?

the men I trust and love that have never done such horrific things?
I think you may have missed the sarcastic icon in your post - otherwise it makes no sense.

[Touchdown]

40. I thought my sarcasm was obvious enough...

that I didn't need an icon. Silly me!

This may be hyperbole, but I have had conversations with women who genuinely feel damn close to what I said, and that attitude is not pretty.

[Caoimhe]

45. yes and I've

had conversations with several middle aged men who genuinely beleive that the Holocaust was faked, the films done with paper machete. Perhaps then...by your logic, middle aged men are Holocaust deniers? Those damned penises!

[Touchdown]

55. No. That is not my logic. That is just stupid.

...but continue to make unfounded wild assumptions about me.

[Jigarotta]

51. apologizes.

I felt you were being sarcastic but jumped on you anyway. I have feet of clay as well, sometimes. ;)

[timber84]

63. Just read your post

what a relief. I hope the majority of women do not act or believe that way.

[Touchdown]

101. No. The vast majority don't.

It's just when contentious issues, and real heinous issues like this one come up, it sometimes turns into a battle of the sexes, where many things are said in anger, and they are hurtful. If we were real misogynists, then we wouldn't care what women say about us. Some call it the Oprah syndrome. She had these shows before her book club where the narrative was always the same...If a man cheats on his wife, then he's a dirty, rotten pig. If a woman cheats on her husband, then he wasn't giving her what she needed, so she had to look elsewhere for love.

Unfortunatley I have met a few (Ok, 3) women who think that being a man is a social disease, and whatever they say about men is justified, because of either the Patriarchy, porn or glass ceilings. Needless to say, I'm not really friends with those.

[timber84]

109. well I'm not one of them, thankfully.

[Marie26]

138. delete nt

[timber84]

62. Please tell me you are being sarcastic to prove a point.

[novalib]

71. Ask How

Ask Now.

Ask Sherwin Williams.

They sell BROAD BRUSHES, you know!

[Touchdown]

108. See it live

See it now!

We have senses of humor for all shapes and sizes on SALE NOW!

Am I crazy? Am I LOONEY? I must be with these ridiculously LOW prices!

[Freedom_Aflaim]

21. Doesnt apply to the public at all

The public is free to draw whatever conclusions they wish about anyone they wish.

Innocent until proven guilty is a judicial system concept, and a very important one. A vital one in fact. But it has no bearing on you and I as outsiders.

But to answer your question within the boundarys of the above, yes, the Duke students are innocent until proven guilty

FWIW, As a member of the public I lean towards not guilty on basis on reasonable doubt for the Duke students and I still believe that OJ is guilty as hell.

[Mutley]

32. Yes, it applies to all cases.

But individuals on a message board are not a court room, and are not the press. They can have their own opinions about whether or not someone is guilty and it won't make a damn bit of difference.

[LanternWaste]

42. Legally? Or just individual opinions?

I believe it applies to jurors and the courts, but not to my individual opinions as whatever I may or may not think about the case(s) has no consequence.

[SoCalDem]

48. Media...n/t

[leftofthedial]

54. to both the accused and the accuser

in rape cases, sadly, often the accuser is tried in the press prior to the trial of the accused

[TygrBright]

56. Depends on whether you're talking about the accused or the accuser. n/t

[Seabiscuit]

61. Depends on whether or not you're watching Nancy Grace.

She tries everyone in the press and declares them guilty.

[Vinnie From Indy]

70. LOL!

I can only take a moment of her and then have to switch channels. She is repulsive.

[Seabiscuit]

219. Does she wear a hallowe'en mask? If not, she should market her sneer

to the hallowe'en mask makers.

[philosophie_en_rose]

65. The Truth is the Truth, regardless of the legal outcome.

I believe in the law and that the government has the burden of proof. And I certainly do not believe that accused rapists ought to be murdered or harassed either. However, I do not need a formal adjudication before making every decision in my life. If you know anything about the law, you'd realize how difficult that would be.

There is a difference between supporting an alleged rapist as a person, providing support and encouragement. It's quite another to attack the victim. Providing support to either party has nothing to do with what happened. The truth is the truth. Something happened. That won't change based upon the legal outcome.

The problem with many of the so-called "innocent before proven guilty" threads is that they are really about hating women, racism, degrading survivors, and playing pseudo-sherlock holmes with nothing more than internet gossip.

[pnwmom]

79. I think that some people are attacking the acccused, others are

attacking the accuser, and no one has the real basis to do either.

[meisje]

66. Clearly NOT on DU! Those men are guilty and how dare I question

the accuser.

[timber84]

72. yep

you've been reading those threads too huh?

[Der Blaue Engel]

67. We're not a court of law

We can assume whatever we like. I will always side with the accuser, as the odds are highly in her favor that she's telling the truth. Now, if I were on a jury, I'd follow the judge's instructions and set my personal belief aside. (Except that I'd never get picked for a rape trial, because I'd tell them the same during jury selection. I assume that most with strong predisposed feelings would also.) But I'm not on a jury, and I'm free to assume that rape accusers tell the truth most of the time.

[WI_DEM]

69. Yes, but also the victim shouldn't be pulled through the mud

by defense attorneys.

[pnwmom]

81. Could you be more specific? Is it the media aspect that bothers you?

Or should the defense attorneys not be able to attack the accuser's credibility?

[Vinnie From Indy]

77. Yes

It is the most fundamental underpinning of our judicial system.

To say that people, men and women, don't falsely accuse each other everyday in thousands of court proceedings is naive in the extreme.

[Jigarotta]

82. it's not so much the Duke students I presume guilty.

It's the awful general justice system in this matter.

and some can bray about how wonderful and equal our society is compared to burka wearing, stoning societies?

different fashions, same god damn travesties

[Goblinmonger]

84. It doesn't apply to what I think

I'm not on the jury. I am not part of the legal process in this case. I can think what I want. I think the Duke guys are guilty. They have no presumption of innocence in my mind.

It is just like WMDs and Bush. There has been not court proceeding about it but everyone here thinks he lied. Shouldn't we all withhold judgement until it is "proven" in court?

[pnwmom]

85. I have seen lots of potentially exculpatory evidence for the students.

None for Bush. Have you?

[Goblinmonger]

91. I am not the court system.

I hope that evidence gets presented as it should. They should have a fair trial. The jury in the trial should presume them to be innocent. I don't have to do that. And I would not say that there is "lots" of evidence in their favor.

[bloom]

126. All I've seen is the defense team throwing up red herrings

If you believe the Duke guys are innocent - it's because you want to believe it.

It sounds like you've made up your mind - and you want to make up some other minds, as well.


Why is that so important to you?

[pnwmom]

142. The concept of "innocent until proven guilty" is very important to me.

And here's something that's not a red herring. The prosecutor had the accuser pick out the pictures of the accused from an album consisting of nothing but pictures of lacross team members. This is not the normally accepted procedure. A typical line-up includes random people who are not suspected of a crime. But in this case, she was directed to pick out faces from a group that included ONLY potential subjects. That is huge.

[Marie26]

140. I'm just curious

Consider this part of an informal survey - do you have any sons? Please don't feel you have to answer me if you don't want to.

[pnwmom]

148. yes, and a daughter

[Marie26]

152. Thanks

I've been wondering if that may affect how people view this case - who you identify with. Women can see themselves being in that situation & feel sympathy for the young woman, while men can see themselves accused of a crime & will be inclined to defend the players. And women with teenaged sons can see their sons being put in that position & might feel sympathy for the young players. Sometimes I think people's position on these types of issues might have more to do w/their own personal experiences than anything else.

[pnwmom]

164. I agree with you, and it is probably why, as I said, my feeling is 50/50

about this case. To my mind, from what I've heard, it could go either way.

I have an 18 year old son and before he went to college I was careful to talk to him about never getting in a situation where he couldn't be completely sure about the consent of a girl. Even if they were both drunk, he would be the one at fault. To a mom, that's scary.

To my daughter I talked about all the things you need to do to protect yourself against date rape.

And, as accused, I do have some "quaint" ideas about really knowing someone VERY well before having sex, which I shared with both of them.

[Vinnie From Indy]

86. Do you feel the Duke players deserve a chance to defend themselves

and will you still feel the same way if 12 jurors in NC find them not guilty?

[timber84]

88. Vinny I believe some posters hear stereotype the players like

some people have stereotyped the accuser.

[Goblinmonger]

100. Pehaps that is true

I do not believe that is my particular problem. I just don't buy their stories. I buy hers. Unlike a jury member, I can do that.

[timber84]

105. and you have every right to your opinion and people here

should respect it.

[Goblinmonger]

107. I just wanted to make it clear

that I was not some "jocks are all assholes so they did it" person.

[timber84]

110. I'm glad you posted that because that sentiment is felt by some

of the posters on this topic. Some "jocks" are and some aren't. Like with all things in life there is the good and the bad.

[Goblinmonger]

113. I'm sure that is the case.

I find that equally as disturbing as those that do the same with strippers. I just think we all have to realize that rapists are not just the creepy looking guys so many cheesy movies make them out to be. Many are just otherwise regular guys. As long as we have the mentality that "my friends and family can't be rapists" we are unable to really address the problem.

[timber84]

114. you are correct and have nailed my personal bias in this case.

[Goblinmonger]

90. My answers

1. Of course they have the right to defend themselves in court. I think I made it very clear that the court system is very different than the "jury" of my mind. I am NOT advocating taking away any due process rights.
2. No. Do you think O.J. Simpson is not guilty? And remember, the jury doesn't EVER find ANYONE innocent, they find them not guilty by the evidence presented. I can still think about them what I want to.

[pnwmom]

97. Right, we can all have our opinions. And right now mine is 50/50

either way.

Anything could have happened.

[Goblinmonger]

103. That's cool

I have no problem with that. I am about 75/25. We clearly haven't heard everything. That is true of both sides, I would imagine.

[Mandate My Ass]

99. Yes, to the accused *and* the victim (eom)

[Marie26]

104. Of course

As it does to any crime, within the justice system. Outside the justice system, people can come to their own conclusions & voice them, as part of that other constitutional guarantee of free speech.

[NaturalHigh]

127. I honestly believe that many in the "pro-stripper" crowd...

do not feel that the lacrosse players are entitled to a defense. They think that because the stripper accused these guys of rape, they are automatically guilty.

Every time a defense attorney gives the press a new piece of information, they indignantly proclaim that "the defense is trying to taint the jury pool" or "they are trying to get the case thrown out." Isn't that what defense attorneys are supposed to do, defend their clients zealously? If anyone points out this simple fact of life, they are accused of "smearing the victim."

[patcox2]

134. Nope. Everyone knows all men are scum-rapists.

And no woman has ever lied, either.

[hexola]

150. Another DU'er looking for a fight...

Sorry - we arent lawyers and this is not a court of law...we can think/believe/speculate WHATEVER WE WANT...get it?

Tired of the rape trolls....

[pnwmom]

170. But any of us could be on a jury anytime. Shouldn't we all believe

in innocent until proven guilty? Deep in our bones, isn't that an important principal?

[hexola]

218. Absolutely...if we are on a jury...IF

But what I think about any legal matter is totally meaningless to those that are actually involved...

And - belive it or not - I can look at things from many perspectives at once...

I have opinions about the Duke rape case - and I will state them...

I have nothing "deep in my bones" regarding the Duke case...

[pnwmom]

232. yeah, me neither. I'm perplexed by those who can seem so certain

when the facts now are so murky.

[Evoman]

157. Misogynstic piece of crap? Some examples.

There is a difference between presuming innocence until proven guilty and the shit that is going on in DU.

If you say:

"We should give the players a fair trial and assume they are innocent until/unless we have enough evidence to prove guilt"

You are not a misogynstic waste of skin.

If you say:

"She put herself into that situation"

or

"Women need to stop flaunting themselves"

or

"If you dress like a hooker, you are asking for rape, even though it is wrong"

You ARE a misogynistic piece of fucking crap!

Does that make it more clear?

(BTW...I am a Male who is, frankly, ashamed to be male sometimes)

[NaturalHigh]

160. What about those of us who believe that rape is always wrong...

but believe the accuser in this case is lying? Are we also "misogynistic pieces of crap"?

[hexola]

163. A classic example of what is driving folks away from DU...

Mysoginy is a strong and specific term - don't use it loosely..."sexist" might be a bit more appropriate...and calling someone a "piece of crap" goes way too far...

Educate the person you disagree with...

And dont be suprised if you get a fight if you throw terms like that around...with nothing more than a few sentences on DU to support it...

Many folks express these attitudes almost accidentally - especially in this rape thing...

I seriously doubt any of the comments you cite above are from true mysoginists...

[Evoman]

171. I am not using it loosely

For gods sakes, I'm a pretty macho, young (26) latin male. Even I can detect a huge amount of woman-hating on this board. I mean, its one thing to think that the Duke players deserve a fair trial, or even that the alleged victim is lying....its quite another thing to blame women for having something to do with their own rape.

My feeling is that most of the people who say that shit are men, who, quite frankly, have an almost bizarre fear of being accused of rape themselves. No, I can't prove that...but I get a seriously ill feeling when I read that almost 60 percent of men would rape a women if they could get away with it.

"51-60% of college men report they would rape a woman if they were certain that they would get away with it. One out of twelve college men surveyed had committed acts that met the legal definition of rape; 84% of these men said what they did was DEFINITELY not rape --Tavris, C. & Wade, C. (1984) The Longest War: Sex Differences in Perspective, Second Edition San Diego: Harcourt Brace Jovanovich Publishers. --Warshaw, R. (1988) I Never Called it Rape: The Ms. Report New York: Harper and Row Publishers. --Women's Action Coalition (no date given) WAC Stats: The Facts About Women New York: WAC"

http://web.mit.edu/stop/www/statistics.htm

[pnwmom]

177. Are you seeing woman hating in this thread, or are you speaking more

generally?

[Marie26]

184. Misogyny is also driving folks away.

I believe sometimes people just don't realize what the implications are of what they're saying, & sometimes just need to be educated, but there are also true misogynists on this board & it's sort of useless to try to find common ground. Which isn't really surprising, cause DU is just a reflection of the population at large. Why would you think misogyny couldn't happen here when it happens in the general culture? So, IMO it isn't sexist to defend the players, or ask for presumptions of innocence here, but IMO it crosses the line to post about how all strippers are, or all women are, or how most rape claims are false, etc. I think it's important to refrain from labeling people for simple disagreements or mistatements, but it's also important to call out real misogyny where it does exist.

[ShortnFiery]

194. Well it's not mysogyny to claim that this makes the water murky ...

in one's efforts to prove a rape. Hey! You're in the sex industry, therefore if you're smart you bring a body guard. That's the duh factor. I'm not blaming the victim when stating the obvious.

[Marie26]

210. Yeah

I'm not talking about the duh factor, I'm talking about making up false things, or extrapolating this case out to mean that all women are lying, women must be asking for it, date rape isn't really rape, etc. etc. etc.

[pnwmom]

172. that's a straw man. No one is saying that here.

[Evoman]

174. Well, if your not saying that stuff then...

you have nothing to worry about do you :)

Or are you?

[Marie26]

253. Have you read

other threads on this subject? All that has been said, and worse.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

178. The Duke Case Is A Perfect Example Of Why It Applies.

Right now there is no way to tell which side is guilty of a crime: the students for rape or the accuser for filing a false report.

This is why it is imperative to always keep an open mind and to assume innocence until guilt is proven. I equally consider that rule to apply, however, to the accuser as well. Some are equally passionate about her guilt and that is undeserved as well. She may very well be a victim in the end of this all. But I'm on the side of reasoning that states that there is no way to tell based on what has been presented so far, which side is right or wrong. It is perplexing how some have taken such passionate stances on this already when the entire case is logically up in the air when looking at all the information so far provided.

Having that said, both sides should be considered with an open mind and presumption of innocence right now, as either could be innocent or guilty. Until more evidence is brought forward, that isn't going to change.

[BiggJawn]

185. No.

Because "inside every man lives a Beast".
Just ask Nancy Grace or any number of so-called "feminists".

[ShortnFiery]

191. Hey! I'm a feminist and Nancy Grace is NOT part of our ranks.

She's a shrill, illogical person who is letting a bad experience in her past cloud her good judgment. Nancy Grace is a sad and pathetic person, a genuine embarrassment to thoughtful prosecutors everywhere.

And she's NO feminist. A feminist wants justice for both sexes and strives to treat all people fairly. I'm presently not a member of NOW but, believe it or not, many men choose to join this organization.

I'm SICK of the Right Wing and some misinformed people here degrading the word "feminist" just like the good old Freeper MorAns. :P :puke:

Despite the puke driven spittle that Jerry Falwell bleats out, both Feminists and Liberals are also AMERICANS. :patriot:

[ronnykmarshall]

195. You better watch your step around La Nancy!

[Marie26]

208. How is Nancy Grace a feminist?

Interesting leap there - because she thinks everyone's guilty, she must be a feminist? Feminism isn't about believing all men are evil, or that everyone accused of a crime is guilty, it's about demanding equal justice for all people regardless of gender.

[ronnykmarshall]

193. Fuck the popcorn!

[dsc]

214. It should but sadly it often doesn't

Many people have crimes for which they are willing to throw out the Constitution. Rape is a popular crime in that regard.

[LittleClarkie]

215. I'd just be happy if BOTH sides could be presumed innocent

There are those here convicting the girl as well.

[Marie26]

217. Me too

I remember catgirl_25 posted on another thread that "the guys are innocent until proven guilty, and the woman is a victim until proven otherwise." Seems like a pretty good policy.

[pnwmom]

234. I'm willing to believe she's a victim, but not NECESSARILY of one of these

guys. Maybe someone earlier in the day. We just don't know anything yet.

[Marie26]

247. So...

how is that inconsistent with my post?

[pnwmom]

254. It isn't really, if you're not saying that she's definitely a victim of

those particular men.

The evidence we know of at this moment does point to her being a victim of someone. But we don't know who, at this point.

It might even be students -- but not the particular ones she picked out of the album. It's all so confusing.

[Marie26]

262. Okay

If the post says "the guys are innocent until proven guilty," I don't know how you could think that I'm saying they're definitely guilty - I was emphasizing the other point that "the woman is a victim until proved otherwise". I agree that she was raped, and I believe she was assaulted by someone at that house. But the DA will have to prove who is responsible for this crime.

[pnwmom]

272. Right. If he can.

And I didn't think you were saying they were definitely guilty; I was just restating it to be sure.

[pnwmom]

233. No one's here's convicting the woman, as far as I've seen. Just saying

that we don't know who's telling the truth -- the accuser or the accused.

[LittleClarkie]

240. Lucky you.

So far I've seen people here say

The stripper's a liar.

Strippers get drunk all day and can't get a real job.

They're really prostitutes.

In fact, when a DUer identified herself as a stripper, someone asked her if she was "soliciting."

They've been in the minority. But I wish I could say I've not seen it. I have.

I'm trying not to have a bias either way.

[pnwmom]

246. Were those comments in this thread, or in another?

[LittleClarkie]

251. Another, a day or two ago

So far, from what I've seen, not in this thread, yet anyway.

[pnwmom]

255. Good. I certainly would have been upset to see that. It's not how I feel.

I look at this from the point of view of being the mother of a daughter and sons, so -- based on the few facts we've heard -- I can easily imagine it either way.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

264. why are people so willing to presume she is guilty of lying?

we dont normally say a murdered person/robbed person is lying, do we?

[pnwmom]

267. I'm saying that either the accuser or the accused could be lying.

I'm not presuming either one is, based on the little I know now. And I haven't heard anyone else on this thread presume that she is lying. People are just saying that it is possible.

And, um . . . a murdered person couldn't very well lie.
And people have made false accusations about being robbed. Just ask any insurance adjuster.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

269. it is also possible that they raped her...

[pnwmom]

276. As I said above my feelings now are about 50/50 -- could go either

way. But hopefully it will be MUCH clearer by the time of the trial.

[pinto]

279. Locking.

Thanks all.