My church owns Halliburton stock

[Critters2]

and they can't see why that bothers me.

So, it's now official....I've died and gone to hell.

Anyone in Iowa need a pastor?

[Lerkfish]

1. what denomination? just curious.

[Critters2]

2. United Church of Christ

you know, the "progressive" Christians.

So, are ya lookin' for a pastor? I'll move anywhere between Davenport and Omaha. Between Sioux Falls and Keokuk. Just get me out of Illinois!

[Lerkfish]

3. I'm surprised, being a UCC member

do you mean the church at larger or just your church?

btw I know of a UCC church on a pastor search in Dayton

[Critters2]

5. It's just my congregation

I'm so disgusted I can barely bring myself to call it a church. It's the ol' rich businessman's church in town, and they simply don't ask eethical questions. Ever. About anything. I'd like to find my predecessor and smack her for letting them get away with this. Now I have to deal with it!!

:puke:

Dayton, Iowa?

[Lerkfish]

27. sorry, dayton ohio

[Ian David]

29. Wasn't UCC going to divest from Caterpillar? But they own HALLIBURTON? n/t

[Critters2]

30. This isn't the denomination,

that owns Halliburton. It's my congregation. And I'm embarassed as all hell.

It does explain why the Investment Committee kept holding secret meetings, and threw a hissy fit when the moderator and I showed up last night.

[Ian David]

32. And the folks upstairs (in the temporal sense) can't intervene? n/t

[Critters2]

36. Not in our tradition

In the UCC, no entity--the national church, the conference, the association--can tell any other entity--like a local church--what to do. Each organ is in covenant, tied by mutual respect, faith, tradition, etc, with the others. But each is also completely autonomous. There really isn't any "upstairs". Much as I wish.

[Ian David]

44. Well, I wouldn't leave...

As Pastor, you're in a unique position to fuck with their heads...

I mean, to help them see the error of their ways.

[Critters2]

46. Well, they're going to hear about it Sunday morning

I do have a "bully pulpit" after all.

[MazeRat7]

4. Your church and many on this board that have a 401k do as well.

Not saying its right, but many folks have no clue what "companies" comprise their large-cap, mid-cap, small-cap funds.

Do they own the stock out-right or as part of a managed fund ?

MZr7

[Critters2]

7. My denomination has a social responsibility policy

regarding investments. So does my mutual fund. It is possible to do things ethically. Not easy, but possible. And incumbent upon any org that calls itself "a church".

They own Halliburton stock outright. Someone gave it to them and when I suggested getting rid of it, they pointed out how profitable it is. A company that supplies materiel for the wars it helps to start is likely to be profitable. Not ethical, but profitable.

And they can argue they're doing it all for their stockholders. Including my employer.


:puke:

[MazeRat7]

9. As it should be, its really not that hard to find those kind of funds

Heck, there are green funds, alternative energy funds, blue funds, etc, etc, etc.

Personally, I avoid funds all together and do the homework/trading myself... it really helps when it comes to getting a good nights sleep. ;)

MZr7

[movonne]

6. The churches are in the money business, and very little into the God

thing, unless it is putting down the gays..

[Critters2]

8. My congregation and denomination are "open and affirming"

regarding gays. We support them, ordain them, marry them.

And then we go out and buy war-monger stock.

[dogday]

13. This might not make any sense

I am the mother of a soldier and I would much rather your church profit then some rich greedy person who won't use it to do good. Is your church using this money to do good? To help the poor? To feed the hungry. To clothe the needy? If you answered yes to any of those questions, I would much rather your church profit as someone is going to anyway.

Please rethink your position if your Church uses the money for good from this stock....

[Critters2]

16. The problem for me, though,

is that Halliburton justifies its behavior by saying it's only working for its stockholders. Halliburton thus uses my church, among others, as an excuse for its policies. Thus, my church has blood on its hands. This is a problem.

And this congregation is doing some charitable work, but not as much as it should or could.

[dogday]

19. I understand what you are saying

but better to go towards something that is good then just to go to another rich man's wallet.. Make something good out of the bad.. Turn it around to be good.. Wash the blood away with good deeds....

[movonne]

21. Church profits do not always go to doing good things (Robertson, Falwell),

a lot of this money is going for political ideas...so I cannot rethink my position on the churches use of money..(I am not saying that ALL are doing this, but a good many are.

[dogday]

23. That is why

I said "if"... The smaller ones do good things, I have see that, and these are the ones that need the support...

[SeattleVet]

18. Owning the stock means that they can also send in a shareholder

proposal for the annual meeting, for the rest of the stockholders to vote on. Lots of social action groups have done this. The proposals almost never get passed, but at least they get the issues into the annual meeting notices and in front of everyone.

A well-worded proposal CAN have an effect on the way the shareholders see the actions of the company.

[dogday]

20. Excellent thought!!!!!

There is another opportunity to do good....

[Critters2]

22. That is a good idea

How to go about this...hmmm....

Thanks!

Critters, off to treat herself to a good (vegan--God, I'm annoyong) lunch while she ponders who she has fallen into the seventh circle of hell.

And how to escape back to Iowa. Where the only investments my church had were in farm land.

[SeattleVet]

41. Check with the company's "shareholder resources" or similar office.

Most companies require that you have held stock for one year before you are allowed to bring forward a shareholder's proposal.

Check the company's web site; they usually have a page with links to stockholder information. Also, check the annual meeting notice; that generally has at least some info about proposals.

The company will almost always send out the ballots with a note that the board recommends voting against the various proposals, but once in a while one will pass. At the very least it gets your info and point across to a wide range of people.

Good luck!

[Ian David]

33. You can use your stock to bring motions before Halliburton's board

For example, how about a "No Confidence" vote on certain board members?

Or a motion to cease aiding the development of Iran's nuclear weapons program?

You can become quite a gadfly.

[Johonny]

10. Isn't that

stock doing good? Seems like a good reading of the market to me.

[Critters2]

11. Yeah, right

What Murderous War-Monger Would Jesus Invest In?

On edit: You should join this church. You'd fit right in...profits over faith.

[MazeRat7]

12. *Snort.... ommmmm I sense a bumper sticker in the works........

[Ian David]

34. I bet the money changers on The Temple's steps weren't all bad, either

I suppose you could do something like sell the stocks short or donate them to another charity.

The problem is, no matter what you do with them-- even if you burn them-- someone, somewhere will make money off of them.

What I'd do (and this is in no way advice): If I had fifty shares, I'd keep one share for myself, and distribute the other forty-nine to forty-nine other charities, so that they would all be able to attend share holder meetings.

Plus, that would mean Halliburton would then have to pay to send out fifty more Proxy Statements and annual reports every year.

You know... you could almost bankrupt a whole company if you got 10,000 people to each own only one share of a company, forcing them to print 10,000 extra proxy statements and annual reports. At least, depending on the company, it may cost more to print each annual report than the value of each share?

[Johonny]

47. Nothing immoral

about smart investing. Lots of honest hard, working, charity giving, god loving Americans work for Halliburton. Perhaps where you see evil and hate where your pastor sees a company that in the right stock holders hands could bring a lot of good to the world.

[Critters2]

48. Once again...I AM the pastor (!)

and I know that all the evil Halliburton does it claims to do for the good of its stockholders. NO Christian church should have that kind of blood on its hands. Halliburton is the worst war profiteer in history, and there is nothing "smart" about investing in such a business. Halliburton is NOT bringing any good into the world.

[shance]

14. You could ask your pastor how the congregation would feel if they

knew the church was profitting off of murder and genocide?

The terms War and disaster profiteering come to mind as well.

[Critters2]

17. I am the pastor

and the church doesn't mind at all.

[shance]

25. I bet many in the Congregation would. Why not post the Halliburton

concerns in the church newsletter with other members? Or bring it up at the next Church board meeting, or heck the 9:00 service on Sunday?

I would think many in the congregation won't be too happy about this.

Perhaps begin a newsletter and include updates from Halliburtonwatch.org.

If they learn about Halliburton, and if they are real Christians, they won't tolerate it.

[Ian David]

35. Why not suggest investing in Ratheon, Boeing and a tobacco company? n/t

[Critters2]

37. I was wondering whether the Carlyle Group is publicly-traded

:sarcasm:

[CornField]

15. Don't leave

Explain it until they change. If they understand the ethical problem and still refuse to let go the stock... then come on over to Iowa. We'd love to have you. :)

[Critters2]

24. I'd love to be there

Must came back from a week's vacation there. Visiting my good ol' rural porgressive populist friends there. A church full of Democrats. Makes me all misty-eyed. Gotta get workin' on my resume!

[ladjf]

26. Why not? Those "Christian Soldiers" love to be armed.

It takes lots of good guns, tanks and aircraft to spread the Gospel.

[ComerPerro]

28. Churches can own stock?

No taxes, unlimited income, faith-based funding...


I ask again... how do I register myself as a chuch?

[Critters2]

31. Can't be too hard.

You certainly don't have to prove you actually believe anything.

[ContraBass Black]

38. If I were a parishoner, I'd walk.

[Critters2]

39. I'm the pastor

and I'm considering walking

[ContraBass Black]

40. Is there another place for you?

[Critters2]

42. Because I'm willing to do rural ministry

and am working on a DMin in rural ministry, I can probably get another call fairly quickly. Its the whole hassle of the process that I'm not looking forward to. But most UCC clergy don't want to serve in places I love, so I can almost certainly get a call.

I've only been here a year and a half, but I have to live with my conscience.

[Ian David]

43. How about bringing in a guest pastor...

from one of those churches that handles poisonous snakes, and "volunteering" the pro-Halliburton members to particpate?

[Critters2]

45. There's a thought!

:rofl: