"Gunning Down Women"

[donsu]

http://www.counterpunch.com/katz10112006.html


Coverage of "School Shootings" Avoids the Central Issue
Gunning Down Women


In the many hours devoted to analyzing the recent school shootings, once again we see that as a society we seem constitutionally unable, or unwilling, to acknowledge a simple but disturbing fact: these shootings are an extreme manifestation of one of contemporary American society's biggest problems -- the ongoing crisis of men's violence against women.

-snip-

Just after the Amish schoolhouse massacre, Pennsylvania Police Commissioner Jeffrey B. Miller said in an emotional press conference, "It seems as though (the perpetrator) wanted to attack young, female victims." How did mainstream media cover these unspeakable acts of gender violence? The New York Times ran an editorial that identified the "most important" cause as the easy access to guns in our society.

-snip-

Incredibly, few if any prominent voices in the broadcast or print media have called the incidents what they are: hate crimes perpetrated by angry white men against defenseless young girls, who -- whatever the twisted motives of the shooters -- were targeted for sexual assault and murder precisely because they are girls.

-snip-

What is it going to take for our society to deal honestly with the extent and depth of this problem? How many more young girls have to die before decision-makers in media and other influential institutions stop averting their eyes from the lethal mix of deep misogyny and violent masculinity at work here? In response to the recent spate of shootings, the White House announced plans to bring together experts in education and law enforcement. The goal was to discuss "the nature of the problem" and federal action that can assist communities with violence prevention. This approach is misdirected. Instead of convening a group of experts on "school safety," the president should catalyze a long-overdue national conversation about sexism, masculinity, and men's violence against women.

For us to have any hope of truly preventing not only extreme acts of gender violence, but also the incidents of rape, sexual abuse and domestic violence that are a daily part of millions of women's and girls' lives, we need to have this conversation. And we need many more men to participate. Men from every level of society need to recognize that violence against women is a men's issue.
-snip-
--------------------------------


my deepest gratitude to Jackson Katz for writing this article

[Fierce]

1. Crimes against women are hate crimes.

This is an excellent article. I rarely rec, but I'm rec'ing this one.

[omega minimo]

17. Seconded

[BoneDaddy]

62. All Crime is a hate crime

Nuff said

[Jed Dilligan]

119. So if you're poor and hungry and steal food

it's because you hate the rich?

I don't buy it.

[BoneDaddy]

136. Sorry

let me clarify. I was meaning to say that all violent crime is a hate crime.

I agree with your statement.

[Jed Dilligan]

175. I can get behind that

Including property crimes would be rather Gingrich-esque, though.

[zreosumgame]

184. but it seems if you steal that kloaf of bread from a woman

it IS a hate crime...at least according to the posters above. So only steal from a man I guess?

[mongo]

78. So women need to be risen up into a protected "vicim" class?

[Greyhound]

170. Risen? LOL, gotta put that one in there with "decider".

BTW, women are victims far more frequently than we are. It is ingrained in our, as well as many other, culture.

[bryant69]

2. I don't know what sort of conversation we would have

Is there anybody arguing that violence against woman is a good thing?

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[havocmom]

4. Was violence against women considered more than the gun issue?

Guns get much more attention, sadly. It is like blaming the hammer when one whacks one's thumb.

[bryant69]

7. The difficulty is tying this mans derangment

to a larger, societal derangement. Otherwise this guy is just crazy, and what he does doesn't reflect on the rest of us.

That's not an angle that is going to pull people in - rather it will make the uncomfortable.

Bryant

[Fierce]

8. If all the girls that were killed that week

...in high profile school shootings were black students, boys and/or girls, instead of just white girls, I think you'd see a very different reaction in society than we do now.

[bryant69]

11. I suspect if they were white girls who were non-Amish

theird be a different reaction. Or to put it another way it's possible that their amish-ness is trumping their female-ness. If that makes any sense.

Bryant

[Fierce]

13. I wasn't talking only about the Amish.

I was talking about all the girls who died in school shootings that week.

It's hard to talk to you about larger trends, because you keep focusing on specifics.

[bryant69]

15. I apologize

I thought this was a discussion about the Amish situation - I hadn't considered those other shootings.

[Fierce]

46. Well, and sadly, it's not only "those other shootings."

Violence against women and girls -- FOR BEING WOMEN AND GIRLS -- happens every day.

[bryant69]

65. I apologize

for insufficiently considering all violence against woman or girls at any time before responding.

Bryant

[femrap]

90. Did you read the article? The killings in Canada?

The White Ribbon movement?

[bloom]

18. actually - it doesn't make any sense. nt

[omega minimo]

27. ppphhhhhT

:spray:

[lukasahero]

47. Perhaps Jackson's book on the subject could be of some use?

He has written a book suggesting that this isn't just one man's "derangement" but a social, cultural phenomenon that must be addressed. He's also started an organization to address the problem: Mentors In Violence Prevention (MVP).

Here's the book: The Macho Paradox: Why Some Men Hurt Women and How All Men Can Help http://www.amazon.com/Macho-Paradox-Some-Hurt-Women/dp/1402204019

Here's a couple of excerpts:

"Isn't it about time we had a national conversation about the male causes of this violence, instead of endlessly lingering on its consequences in the lives of women?

But when was the last time you heard someone, in public or private, talk about violence against women in a way that went beyond the standard victim fixation and put a sustained spotlight on men - either as perpetrators or bystanders? It is one thing to focus on the "against women" part of the phrase; but someone's responsible for doing it, and (almost) everyone knows that it's overwhelmingly men. Why aren't people talking about this? Is it realistic to talk about preventing violence against women if no one even wants to say out loud who's responsible for it?

As a measure of just how far we have to go, consider that in spite of the misogyny and sexist brutality all around us, millions of non-violent men today fail to see gender violence as their issue. "I'm a good guy," they will say. "This isn't my problem."

The truly vexing challenge has been getting men to actually go out and do something about the problem, in the form of educating and organizing other men in numbers great enough to prompt a real cultural shift."

[Jed Dilligan]

120. "Educating and organizing"

Would that really work?

I'm just thinking--if someone came to me and said, "I'm a guy, and you're a guy, so you should listen to me and join my program," I would tell him where to shove his program.

Wouldn't a national ad campaign where the sexiest female stars come on and say "A man who hurts women is not a real man" be more effective than some weird grassroots men's movement?

[lukasahero]

122. "where the sexiest female stars come on"

Not sure how playing into sexism is supposed to alleviate it...?

I guess it comes down onc again to the idea that I give men a bit too much credit to do the right thing to help the women in their lives just because it's the right thing to do and not because the person asking them to help falls in the "I'd do her" category.

Do you really believe men can't think this through with their minds instead of their, well, you know...?

Would you really tell another man who asked you to join his organization to help stop violence against women to shove it? Is it because you hate men or because you don't care about helping women?

[Jed Dilligan]

124. I'm just not a joiner

Is it sexist for men to be attracted to women?

Strong, beautiful, sexy women telling me to be ashamed of myself would be much more compelling to me than a bunch of kooky guys sitting in a circle and crying and hugging.

I don't have time for joining any movements, I live my own life. I think most men feel the same--for better or worse.

[Dora]

133. That's not true.

You join who you wish to join. You joined DU simply by virtue of posting here.

Just sayin'.

[Jed Dilligan]

171. It's not the same

Posting on a website isn't the same as actually joining a movement.

No one would want me for a spokesman or organizer, I'm not that type of person, don't have the patience.

[Dora]

182. I disagree.

One doesn't have to be a spokesman or an organizer in order to join a movement. My yellow star is testimony to that, as is yours.

If there could ever be a "men's movement" that gives serious discussion to the issues of male violence (whether male/male or male/female or male/child), joining it need only indicate a willingness to discuss the issues at hand. Not everyone can be a leader, but everyone does have something to contribute - the possibilites are endless.

Contributing to a discussion (as we all do here) is not a valueless enterprise. Sometimes it helps only to have a willing set of ears.

[Jed Dilligan]

186. When I hear "men's movement"

I think of drum circles and group hugs and masturbating in sylvan groves... It's a huge turnoff.

I don't ever want to belong to any organization based on my gender.

But that's just me... As far as the difference between this and real activism goes--I can see your point. You're defining movements more broadly than I am.

[Scout]

160. Strong, beautiful, sexy women telling me to be ashamed of myself

So we won't be listened to unless we are "beautiful and sexy." :eyes:

How about some "plain, normal, everyday women" -- aren't they worth listening to? How compelling would you find their arguments?

Your characterization of men who DO listen to women and care about violence against them, as "kooky guys sitting in a circle and crying and hugging" says a lot about you too.

[Jed Dilligan]

169. Maybe we're not talking about the same thing

I thought we were talking about raising public awareness of violence against women. I suggested a campaign that would be more realistic in the society we live in than a grassroots movement--something like the "men's movement"--which is what it appeared to me you were suggesting.

Now you are talking about something else--listening to women. Before, it was listening and talking to other men. What exactly is the goal here?

I look at guys I've known who have punched their girlfriends, and I am absolutely positive that an "educating and organizing" campaign would have zero effect on their behavior. If, on the other hand, the popular culture shifted from making violence against women seem macho to making it seem weak and un-manly, they would, if not changing their behavior, at least think twice about bragging about it.

As for me, I've tried movements and meetings for various causes, and have found them all a waste of time--not for everyone involved, but for me. I'm not a people person.

[seabeyond]

185. my question. those men that punched girlfriend

did they disgust you? did you tell your friend, you disgust me? that is pathitic. what wuss cant hit a girl. and really shame him for his behavior

and if you did that, what was the reaction of the male. i think disapproval from male friend would be most effective

[Jed Dilligan]

188. Sure I was disgusted, but

I've never known anyone to change due to my expressing disapproval.

The last time a guy was involved in that kind of incident, I shunned him. A lot of others did, too, and maybe he got the idea. Confronting him would have made the problem worse. It would just give him someone new to attack. Shunning made him think about why people were avoiding him, and from what I've heard he's a better guy now.

I guess that's a way of expressing disapproval. I don't think talking will do the trick--a person who hits is beyond the point of talking.

I think people are more sensitive to the opinion of the community than the opinion of individuals. For better or worse, mass opinion in this society is most readily influenced by advertising and celebrities.

[seabeyond]

190. not being a male i cannot tell you want will take one down

to think about the disapproval of his friends, ergo society as a whole. but yours and other friends reaction.... by your own words, allowed him to think.

now cause i am a fair and balanced gal.... after this whole thread, i have to say,.... i do not give a female a break because a guy "hits" her. absolutely. always. as a given. i have also watched girls/womens behavior that i would face off with the female and say, hey.... what was your part in it. i dont often find where it is just one sided, unless it is the drunk abuser that has controlled and conditioned family to take it, a whole different breed.

but i guess why i stress this on this thread males feel under attack. and a male like you that are disgusted by the behavior and will shun a friend for this behavior have absolutely no ownership in what is being talked about the males of topic. i would hope the males would understand we all have men and boys in our life, who are not like the males we are angry about. and many on du are NOT the men we are talking about. please dont take the "male bashing" personally. and really i am not seeing a lot of across the board, broad brush bashing either

[loyalsister]

200. Interesting point

another consideration in the discussion that I could see as important is to look at the response that men have to violence against women.
It seems that in such a case violence against the man who hurt the woman is legitimized.
Law enforcement are often painted as the hero in media images on cop shows when they "rough up" the men who have committed violence against women that they capture.
I have to wonder if that is an appropriate response, because I would expect that humiliation in the form of demeaning violence (in reality or with someone a person can sympathize with) only contributes to the cycle.

I am not offering sympathy. Only suggesting that maybe our eye for an eye type responses in practice or in theory don't help.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

5. No, but too many here...

argued in another thread that women were not being targeted for violence specifically because of their sex. This article is a good response to those who tried to convince us there was no such thing.

And here is the archived thread:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=2314633

[Shakespeare]

6. No, but there are those on this site who argue that it's a non-issue.

Statistically and societally irrelevant, even though statistics and societal trends (all across the globe) flatly contradict that position. I can't believe I see that shit on DU.

[bryant69]

9. I wouldn't argue that it's a non-issue, but i'm not sure

how broad it is. Or what the proper approach to solving it is.

Bryant

[Name removed]

91. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Control-Z]

24. Maybe not out loud.

But there are plenty of men who refuse to engage in discussions on violence against women or just deny the need for it exists.

[bryant69]

26. What can men contribute to such a discussion?

Other than apologies?

Bryant

[donsu]

28. if you think hard enough you may come up with some useful

suggestions and actions

[Quantess]

34. Sorry if your feelings were unintentionally hurt, Bryant, and

any other male who might feel miffed that Donsu has commented on the recent rash of teenage girls being shot in their schools.

Why should you apologize? Were you the shooter? :nopity:
What, are WE supposed to apologize for making you feel uncomfortable for discussing a curious trend in recent events? Please get a grip.

[hfojvt]

55. there are something like 20,000 homicides and 1.6 million violent crimes

every year in this country.
If you have a statistical breakdown I would love to see it. Reading this report from Kansas City, men seem to make up a disproportionate number of both victims and perpetrators
http://blogs.kansascity.com/crime_scene/homicides_kansas_city/index.html
The US soldiers and casualties in Iraq are also disproportionately men (or boys).

The discussion is not the issue. Rather, it is the framing of the discussion as some kind of universal men vs. women endemic in our society that some men either find offensive or over-simplistic.

Again, when you comment on a "recent rash" you seem to forget that since those two highly publicized crimes that happened over a week ago, there have been almost 400 other homicides (and 11,000 other sexual assaults). The recent rash, involving two deranged perpetrators, the 2nd of which seems to have been a copycat, is an aberration rather than a trend or typical example.

[Quantess]

66. Thanks for pointing that out.

"..it is the framing of the discussion as some kind of universal men vs. women endemic in our society that some men either find offensive or over-simplistic."

I also find that men vs. women is grossly oversimplistic. But, is the problem really framed that way, or is it just a perception that it is being framed that way? One can discuss facts, statistics, events, and the reasons behind them, without getting emotional or feeling that they are being blamed for someone else's actions.

[Control-Z]

41. You appear to have missed

my point completely so I will try to spell it out for you.

There are men who condone violence against women. More than you might think. It doesn't take a rape and a murder to spell out violence. It can be as minor as degrading your wife over a few extra pounds. It happens everyday; in your neighbor's house, the work place, at family gatherings, maybe in your own home. And any man who does not speak out is holding on to his right to violate and domineer women whether he participates or not.

You ask what men can contribute to such a discussion other than apologies. (How characteristic to put the onus back on woman.)

How about admitting you enjoy the power you have over women? Admit that you fear these conversations might start chipping away at your (presumed) right to control and use women. Talk to your brothers and call them on their BS. Change your behavior. Start thinking outside the 8th grade locker room.

[bryant69]

48. I apoligize

I will also point out, that those are ways can contribute in general, not contribute to the discussion. And the one thing involving this discussion that you wish me to do is to admit that I enjoy the power I have over women, and that i fear that talking about this will chicp away at my presumed right to control and use women. Which sounds like an apology to me.

I apologize for enjoying what little power i have over woman (which power I don't see, myself). I apologize for fearing that these conversations might start chipping away at my (presumed) right to control and use woman.

I will try to start thinking outside the 8th grade locker room.

Bryant

[Quantess]

60. Relax. It's not about YOU.

Well, maybe it could be. ....just kidding.
You seem to be worried that all women paint all men with a broad brush. You, as an individual, are not being blamed for anything. Settled?

On with the discussion.

[lumberjack_jeff]

131. Notwithstanding the previous poster's use of second-personal pronoun.

"You" has a specific meaning. It wouldn't have been any clearer if she'd poked a finger in Bryant's chest while expressing it.

Ask 100 men if they enjoy the power they, personally, have over women generally. Go ahead.

[Quantess]

165. Good point.

It's not productive communication.

[El Fuego]

176. There are entire societies that condone violence against women.

The only saving grace is that violence against women is not institutionalized in western societies like it is in other countries.

In Brazil, men have used the machismo defense to commit murder if a women offends his "honor." In India, women are burned alive if their families don't pay the dowry. In Africa, rape is epidemic. In African Islamic countries, women are stoned for adultery.

Sad to say that the situation is much worse for other women around the world.

[noiretextatique]

181. not sure that is a "saving grace"

it didn't save the victims in these cases. i hear what you are saying, and of course i agree, buy i would add that this is also a society that condones violence against women.

[Fierce]

44. Call out other men.

Men who denigrate women. Men who make sexist jokes. Men who belittle, dismiss, deny and minimize women.

Raise sons who respect girls and women. Mentor boys and teach them to respect girls and women.

Most importantly, listen to the girls and women in your life.

[marions ghost]

113. yes

Bottom Line = how you raise boys.

Boys who are raised to respect women do not turn out to be abusers. Abusers come from families who teach the standard macho male dominance stuff in one form or another, regardless of socio-economic status.

Every guy reading this knows what I'm talking about.

[lukasahero]

52. In case you don't read the other reply - here's his book.

answering your question, written by the same guy who wrote the article in the OP.

Jackson Katz: The Macho Paradox: Why Some Men Hurt Women and How All Men Can Help http://www.amazon.com/Macho-Paradox-Some-Hurt-Women/dp/1402204019

And here's a link to his website and the organization he founded: Mentors In Violence Prevention (MVP) http://www.jacksonkatz.com/ If you really want to help, consider joining.

And here's his list of 10 things men can do to prevent gender violence:http://www.jacksonkatz.com/wmcd.html

A few of his more proactive points:

"Be an ally to women who are working to end all forms of gender violence. Support the work of campus-based women's centers. Attend "Take Back the Night" rallies and other public events. Raise money for community-based rape crisis centers and battered women's shelters. If you belong to a team or fraternity, or another student group, organize a fundraiser.

Recognize and speak out against homophobia and gay-bashing.
Discrimination and violence against lesbians and gays are wrong in and of themselves. This abuse also has direct links to sexism (eg. the sexual orientation of men who speak out against sexism is often questioned, a conscious or unconscious strategy intended to silence them. This is a key reason few men do so).

Attend programs, take courses, watch films, and read articles and books about multicultural masculinities, gender inequality, and the root causes of gender violence. Educate yourself and others about how larger social forces affect the conflicts between individual men and women.

Don't fund sexism. Refuse to purchase any magazine, rent any video, subscribe to any Web site, or buy any music that portrays girls or women in a sexually degrading or abusive manner. Protest sexism in the media."

[brainy]

33. Please educate yourself

Look here,
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/porn/

and, in particular, here
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/porn/prosecuting/

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/porn/interviews/sanchez.html
QUOTE
We don't prosecute people having sex with each other, even if it's a situation where there's a lot of people. It doesn't matter if it's vaginal intercourse, anal intercourse. We don't prosecute things if it's just that, but, say...
UNQUOTE

This is where the problem lies, this is where the public must draw the line. It's all over the internet, easily accessible, and it is unacceptable.

[mongo]

67. Yeah, right.....

EDUCATE -- don't bother to look at any data or statistics, when we have Moralists to provide your opinions for you.

Try these on for size:

http://prorev.com/2006/08/evidence-found-that-porn-reduce-rape.htm

http://www.sexwork.com/coalition/lesscrime.html

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=913013

Want to explain why the statistics don't support your claims at all?

Oh, and enjoy your stay on DU

[Quantess]

74. I don't agree that porn is the cause of the problem.

Fundamental Muslim countries have far less pornography than we do, and those countries have a terrible, deeply ingrained, culture of violence toward women.

Holland has lots of pornography, and legalized prostitution, yet Holland is a relatively non-violent place for females.

[stepnw1f]

94. oh brother.... and masturbation leads to pedophilia (nt)

[supernova]

155. This isn't a discussion about porn

specifically. It's about our attitudes about raising boys and men with the attitude that women and girls are inferior and therefore deserving of physical violence.

That is what must stop. When we raise all boys with the attitude that women are their equals and deserving of their utmost respect, that's when you will see the market for abusive porn go way down. Notice, I'm not sayall All porn, just the most abusive stuff.

[lapislzi]

36. No, but how many are calling it what it is? n/t

[havocmom]

3. add my gratitude to Katz. And some to you for posting

It is not the means by which violence is done that is the problem. It is the root causes of violence that needs to be addressed. For too many and for too long, it is OK to take out hate/frustration/anger on females.

Taking it out on YOUNG females, who are by nature, weaker than grown males, is particularly cowardly.

We pay too dearly for the refusal to pay for mental health care in America.

[HardRocker05]

10. if the white kids had been let go and only the black kids shot, racism obv

obviously would have been a huge part of the story. it is true that when crimes are committed against women specifically because they are women, the issue of sexism is carefully avoided by most.

[ck4829]

12. Fascism and Misogyny are inseparable.

[donsu]

14. good point - thanks for bringing it up

nt

[bloom]

16. It's amazing how ingrained sexism is - that people don't recognize it.

Here's a thing to do. When you watch movies - think about how women are portrayed. Think about how many male actors there are in relation to female (often it's like 25 to 1) - think about the power and lack thereof of the characters. You could also do that with the Daily Show and the whole Comedy Channel - as well as just about any other channel.

And then, of course, there is the porn industry.

If you are not seeing this as a societal thing - you aren't looking.

[omega minimo]

19. CSI: Everywhere

:puke:

[The2ndWheel]

20. Then why do women today still want in?

Create a different society. I was involved in a prior post about this topic, and was told that was what the feminist movement was about. Great. So is that movement dead? All I see are women trying to force fairness into a system that was made to oppress them. Why?

I know why, it's because you can't do much about it. Not that women can't, nobody can have their own way of life anymore. Centralized power, which is what civilization is, doesn't like diversity.

So until we're all ready to fundamentally change the way we exist, which we're not(on a mass level anyway), this problem won't go away. Unless we find what makes men violent and genetically engineer it out of us. All men will have to have it done, since women can never know for sure.

[donsu]

23. male violence is not genetic it is learned

nt

[The2ndWheel]

30. Fine

Then do away civilization. That's where we learn it from. That is the mechanism with which women have been raped, beaten, murdered, and oppressed for thousands of years. I'm all for that by the way. You could take it down yesterday for all I care. The quicker the better. I'm guessing it won't happen though.

[seabeyond]

38. this is where men come in. from the time you are young boys

the majority of males knows what is acceptable and what is not. the majority of boys dont have this issue. those males that know better have to teacher their "brothers" it is not acceptable. sittin at a bar, sittin in the locker room, teaching your sons, younger male siblings. that is the males role

when sittin in the locker room and some male says, man i got this chick drunk and fuck her blind..... instead of gigglin, you tell him unacceptable. you embarrass him. you humiliate him for his behavior.

women have our own issue we need to do with our own gender

[AnneD]

83. I was in a restaurant the other day...

having dinner with my daughter. We sat next to a booth of rather loud guys. I couldn't swear to hear all the conversation, but it was a guys night out and there was some conversations about dates getting drunk and the guys fucking them. These were guys in their 20's -30's. At first I was offended because my daughter is 16 and I don't appreciate such attitude. But instead of saying anything-my daughter and I sat quietly and listened to them, occasionally leaning forward to whisper a comment. I had my back to their booth but my daughter could see them. It was an educational conversation for my daughter and sadly confirmed some of my long held suspicions. As our meal was almost over-I excused myself to go to the ladies room. Upon returning to my seat-I noticed that it was much quieter at the other booth. My daughter had a sly smile. I gave her a quizzical look. She leaned forward, 'When you left, the guys noticed me (she is attractive) and started giving me flirty looks.....I just gave them 'the look'* and they kinda shut up. Guess they figured I had heard their whole conversation.:rofl: Dang, I wish I had in going on like she has when I was her age. At 16 she is out of their league.

* 'the look' is that glance known to mothers , grandmothers, and teachers that stops you dead in your tracks from committing any misdeed your had planned.

My daughter did a service project on battered women (at age 13) so she is well aware of a womans place in this world. And after our travels abroad-we are aware that, as badly as it seems here, it is even worse in other countries. Outside of the Scandinavian countries, most places could stand drastic improvement.

[The2ndWheel]

116. But as you said

the majority don't act that way. In a world with 3 billion or so males, it'll still end up happening no matter how many bars you hang out in.

[aikoaiko]

79. What evidence do you have for that?

We know that genes lead to difference glands in males and females that produce different amount of testosterone and we know that testosterone leads to increases in aggression, success in male-male competition, and risky behavior that could lead to their early demise. There's a lot of data correlating testosterone levels with aggression and some good experimental data.

Here's an abstract from an article:
Evolutionary costs of aggression revealed by testosterone manipulations in free-living male lizards
Journal Behavioral Ecology and Sociobiology
Issue Volume 23, Number 1 / July, 1988
C. A. Marler1 and M. C. Moore1
(1) Department of Zoology, Arizona State University, 85287 Tempe, AZ, USA

Summary We examined the hypothesis that increased aggression results in decreased survivorship. We tested this hypothesis by increasing aggression of free-living male lizards Sceloporus jarrovi with testosterone implants and evaluating the effects on survivorship. A previous study showed that testosterone-implanted males were more aggressive than controls, suggesting a greater degree of success in male-male competition. Results of the present study show that the same testosterone-implanted lizards experienced greater mortality.

Testosterone-treated males were also seen more frequently and more conspicuous ones were less likely to survive. Testosterone-treated males lost more weight over the summer. In controls, survivorship was negatively correlated with the body weight index. These data suggest that conspicuousness and energetic demands interact in their influence on survivorship. Thus, the natural plasma level of testosterone may be at an optimal level balancing any potential selection pressures for a higher level of testosterone through sexual selection with selection pressures for a lower level through a decrease in survivorship.

[bloom]

25. There are things that individuals can do.

The first thing is to recognize the problem. And then there are actions that people can take. (The white ribbon thing is a start).

Stop supporting esp. sexist activities/companies/whatever. Stop recommending sexist movies/shows/whatever.

Problems can be smaller - even if they don't go away - through education and will. Participate in sexism - allow those around you to be sexist without challenge and be a part of the problem. Or start living mindfully and be a part of the solution.


Sure it it tempting to go start a new society - like some women in Africa did. Most of us will have to do what we can to change this one.

[The2ndWheel]

32. Because the ribbon really helps stop it

It's not enough to just stop supporting this or that show or company. If that's all it took, many an empire would never have come to be.

Good luck changing this society. It's not just women, it's everything we do. Few are ready to fundamentally change that, so the problem will stay, and then change shape into something else when we think we solved it.

I'm not saying don't try whatever it is we need to try. But if we're going to try something, hopefully we'll come up with something better than symbolism, because I don't even see that as a start. Maybe I'm wrong, and it is an actual start. It's great if it is. As long as women can be CEO's of multi-national corporations(they're still considered human even if women run it) which exploit every aspect of life, but don't support sexism in some way, I guess we'll be on the right track.

[seabeyond]

37. bullshit. i am 44. was single a lot of years. met and know tons of men

i can see it in the man that can do that, and the men that dont do that...... it is not genetically engineered. it is learned

[The2ndWheel]

40. Alright, I'll go with that

Like I said in another reply, do away with what has allowed men to do this. I don't mean by attempting to force fairness into the very system that was designed to oppress you, and the rest of life on this planet. It's not going to happen.

Real change. Not women having rights in the workplace. Not women being able to rise up the corporate ladder until they're running the exploitation game themselves. If we're not going to go that far, you'll still see the Girls Gone Wild commericials all night.

[omega minimo]

56. Time to connect the dots

"Centralized power, which is what civilization is, doesn't like diversity."

The system is the source of the problem and "engineers" the behavior.

We're ready to fundamentally change it.

It's also a matter of planetary survival.

[Name removed]

95. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[The2ndWheel]

114. Appreciate the head's up

[Quantess]

180. Huh?

"Genetically engineer" violence "out of us"?
"Create a different society"?

Sounds like you would like to start a women-only community. Hey, if that's what some women want, it should be an option for them. Myself, I wouldn't like it.;)

[barb162]

22. That's right.

And when all the men are fully clothed and the one woman in the scene is wearing a bathing suit. arghhh. Sexism is all over the movies

[seabeyond]

35. i got so f*in pissed last night, a two minute porn commercial girls gone

wild as i lay in bed with my husband. i am so tired of that shit. i watch so little tv. one i like is stewart and colbert. i have to put up with the f'in girls pulling up their shirts, masterbating, humping the ground to watch those two f*in shows. and then the damn commercial went on so long, it cut off part of stewarts show with lou dobbs on the hot seat

then the next commercial is some stupid cartoon that kept saying vagina this and vagina that ....

i told hubby... wtf.....

guys dont have to put up with this shit and women are suppose to sit back, enjoy, embrace.....

BULLSHIT

[Control-Z]

50. Or you can go to a safe family station

and see never ending BOB commercials. Sit back with your kids while they tell you all about

...Bob's "swelling" of pride

...the new "spring" in his step

..."respect" from his neighbors

now that he's getting it up and giving it to the little Mrs.

Makes me want to SCREAM!!!

edit: typo

[seabeyond]

54. are you talking the viagra commercials? i HATE those commercials

too. first commercials to come on that really allow men to feel a little of what women do. when they were on non stop i told hubby. arent you pissed. i would be pissed. it was one saying something about making girlfriend happy, like a man can't make his woman happy without a pill. no, i dont like those either, but bob isnt naked either, shaking his weiner or jerkin off in front of my face.

i really dont like those commercials because of hte young boys watching. they already have enough to deal with "the whole penis" thing. they dont need that added pressure

but.... we just dont watch much tv. kids watch almost none. leaves me with stewart and colbert and...... boston legal.

[Control-Z]

63. I don't like the message it sends

It is not a Viagra ad. (although I'm not fond of those either) It is for a Viaga type supplement.

They focus on the man's dick as the source of all things that matter in life - The 60's garden party where all the neighbors KNOW he's getting it up and sticking it his wife - The assumption of a demure little wifey always eager to take it - Man earns respect with dick.

I'm sorry but it's wrong, wrong, wrong. Any self respecting man or woman should be up in arms over such a sexist ad.

This idea that men are entitled to always have a hard on and think with it is bullshit. And the same men who promote this crap are the ones telling girls to keep their legs together. (unless, of course, it's the girl they are trying to stick it to)

Have you ever noticed that women are never portrayed as healthy when it comes to sex? They are either slutty girls gone wild or good girls who do as they are told.

[seabeyond]

64. IF... i dare to be bothered and speak out about a girls gone wild

commercial than more males jump on to call me a prude, a fundamentalist..... i have issue with sex. so out of embarrassment, that no one questions my pleasure with sex, i have to NOT be bothered? i have to accept what is thrown in my face? even enjoy it with my husband??????

that too, pisses me off

another way for male to control women

fuck that sheeeeit. wink

i agree with what the ads represent. pretty soon guys are going to have such a conflict gonna think they NEED the drug to satisfy a woman. and isnt that sad

[femrap]

98. All this crap about pharmacists being able to

deny women Plan B and Birth Control pills....as far as I am concerned, the only person who should be able to fill a viagra/cialis perscription is a WOMAN!!!!

[Control-Z]

108. Oh, I agree!!

I think there should be laws for men that work along the lines of spousal notification and parental consent laws.

A man would need a consenting woman to fill a prescription for, be under the influence of, or in possession of viagra/cialis. (and no crossing state lines)

[RB TexLa]

154. Then work for the overturning of Roe v. Wade

then men will not have the privacy rights to control and regulate their bodies, and state laws can be passed and enforced for what you mentioned, and a required consent or spousal notification for a vasectomy.

[Control-Z]

158. On the contrary.

I will fight to the death, if need be, to preserve Roe.

No surprised though, that you are threatened by the idea of being treated like a woman.

[RB TexLa]

159. No, I look at Roe without regard to gender

gender has nothing to do with people controling their own bodies without interference of a spouse, family or government.

[femrap]

97. Please write Colbert about this....he needs to hear it.

I don't think Jon Stewart cares one bit about women's rights...but Colbert just might.

[seabeyond]

104. i dont think it will do any good. on these shows they are crude and

outrageous. personally i am crude and outrageous too. i am not offended by their crudeness. but..... i am offended by girls gone wild porn commercial put in a middle of show i watch. i will end up stop watching.

the guy who makes these shows is the biggest, filthiest perverted pig. i dont watch howard stern.... but i like stern. i dont like his show or degradation of women. this guy that does the girls gone wild is feeding off young, stupid, inexperienced girls.

i want every father who has a daughter that gets a kick, hard on frm these commercials to some day look up and see their daughter laying their masterbating in front of their face.

it is a total abuse of inexperience and general drunk girls.

and it is a porn show.

without giving me the option of watching or not.

[femrap]

107. Tell Colbert you're not watching due to his advertisers.

Listen, Colbert teaches Sunday School on Sundays....I'm not kidding. I think he's a genuine guy. Maybe he doesn't even know that Girls gone Wild is advertising in your TV area.

Seriously...if you don't tell him, how the hell are we ever going to change the damn world???

[Laurab]

135. He does know

He had an interview with an author this week, and talked about "Girls Gone Wild", and mentioned that they were a big advertiser for the network. I'm not sure how much control he has over the advertisers, but I'm guessing he's heard some complaints, or CC has, or he probably wouldn't have been aware of it.

I think Stephen is for sure a "genuine guy", but it's doubtful he has control over advertising. I don't really find it offensive, I think the ads are stupid, really, and I normally go off and do something else during commercial breaks, anyway. You have to remember, the show is on kind of late at night, and advertising is geared to their audience. That doesn't mean that Stephen or Jon necessarily like the ads being on.

[seabeyond]

137. i saw that, with that interview with that woman. was interesting n/t

[mongo]

132. I was thinking about this last night.

and it is a porn show.

without giving me the option of watching or not.


Ok Seabeyond -- would you say you have a right not to have to watch the girls gone wild commercials?

Your view on what you preceive as "pornography" on TV, and feeling you should at least have an "option of watching or not" (not sure what that means since the TV has an off switch) --

How is your view any different than a fundy xtain who doesn't want gays to get married, doesn't want their children exposed to any gay positive themes in school, etc.?

I think in both cases it is the desire to see your personal values and beliefs reflected in the world around you.

DISCLAIMER: I present this argument as an allegory ONLY. I fully support the right of Gay and Lesbian folk to marry as they see fit. Joe Francis is an arrogant, misogynistic prick who would take advantage of anyone or anything he can...

[seabeyond]

138. hence my problem. and why i dont write, and just say i dont like

i understand the channel it is on and the time it is on, i really have no recourse and nothing is going to be done. i dont have an argument but.... i dont like it. and i dont like the person who profits off of vulnerability. and my option is turning off the tv.

my husband suggested i write too.

what i am suggesting those promoting or in favor of wanting porn, i stand by their right, without condemnation. but, i see those that want their porn have no issue whatsoever in infilitrating all parts of our society insisting we too have to participate.

i see it as i am respecting your want.
but
you dont respect my want.

and porn is not a lifestyle, as in hetero, homo, or bi..... it is a choice.

but... you are right mongo, not a damn thing i can do about it, i suck it up and accept or i dont watch two of the very few shows i enjoy on tv.

[mongo]

153. Fair enough

i see it as i am respecting your want.
but
you dont respect my want.

You know, I've had conversations with a RW'er about topics like gay rights and they have told me "liberals are supposed to be tolerant. Why can't you be tolerant of my intolerance?" (I think he got it from Rush)

So, I guess from my perspective the right to express and live free almost always trumps the right of someone to be mearly offended by someone's behavior.

There's a lot of crap on TV and in popular culture that I don't like too. My pet peeve these days is the Bratz dolls. God -- I'm glad my duaghter is grown up now. Barbie was bad enough.

So, yeah sometimes it sucks but there really isn't a damn thing to do about it.

[seabeyond]

139. btw

are you suggesting flashing tits, masturbating for the camera, humping anything at hand and making out with fellow female, bare.... is not porn?

granted i don't know the definitions or degrees of porn. i don't like reality shows because of the mere voyeurism of it. or award shows,.... so voyeurism into someone else f*in certainly isn't my thing. i am a bit unknowledgable on the subject, that i will own.

[mongo]

152. Since all the "naughty bits" are blacked out

I'm not sure I would call the commercial "porn".

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

142. You know, there's a "Boy's Gone Wild" too

I saw it while flipping past the gay channel (LOGO?) so I guess that is who it's marketed to.

Yes, men of either persuasion = Filthy pigs. I guess that's what this says.

[seabeyond]

143. it popped up on comedy central months ago and went away

i busted up laughing and told hubby alright...... now the males can know how it feels. didnt last long before it went to the gay channels huh? i guess males cant "suck it up" bah hahahaha. kinda like they got the viagra commercials off the football games. too much for males to deal with. women on the other hand....

now, to be consistant, i have been on hubby side with get it hard thru chemical commercials from day one and was right there booing the guys gone wild commercial, totally supportive of my man and his feelins. wink

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

145. But women don't watch that, do they?

I mean, I would figure it could only be targeted to gay males, no?

(Not saying gay men don't watch CC, just thinking out loud they are putting their ad dollars in a more targeted base.)

[seabeyond]

146. i dont know. when i got married my concern directed to hubby

and i know if i slobbered all over myself in front of my hubby it would hurt his feelings. so years ago, i put that aside. so i dont know if women gets into that. i would imgaine there are a lot. when i was 18 i bought a playgirl. after one magazine of looking at all different dicks, then what? the articles? nah. i dont. not interested.

but the market was there for the get em hard commercials during the football games, adn the guys got those off

[etherealtruth]

69. You hit the nail on the head, bloom. n/t

[QuestionAll...]

73. movies are horrendously bad for sexism...

subtle and not so subtle.
how many I have seen where the young boy ends up being the brave hero McGiver wiz while his older sister and mother cower away .
bleh.
a recipe done over and over again.

[Greyhound]

177. It is worse than you know (or at least wrote)

Can you imagine some studio exec telling Micheal Douglas that he would be perfect for the part if he were just 25 years younger and perked up his sagging ass?

Leading roles for women are rare as hens teeth and never go to an over-forty woman that looks like she is over forty.

How many films have you seen where the leading character is female, in her sixties, and has a twenty-something hard-body as her side-kick - love interest?

Is John Travolta told he needs to lose 30 lbs. and spend the next 8 weeks in the gym to get the lead in the next action/fantasy blockbuster?
ARGH!:banghead:

[QuestionAll...]

202. noted for years now.

and Harold and Maude gets the ewwwww comments because of a much older woman with a young guy, which isn't what the film is about, but you get the 'gross' thing anyway from thickheads.

Personally, I don't really give a shit about this obvious nonsense. In fact I laugh at the stupidity of it all.
But I worry for my daughter and all others daughters, and sons. it never really ends, this gonads gone wild thing.

[fishnfla]

21. Some sort of predatory sexual compulsion. Dahmer and Gacy had it too

Williams, the Atlanta Killer
the Green River Killer
Ted Bundy
BTK in Wichita
The gainsville murders, Rollings
the boston strangler
going back to Jack the Ripper

The guilty slaughtering the innocent. Preying upon the weaker. Some against boys, some aginst girls.

None of the above used guns however. A psychiatrist could perhaps describe the sexual power or dominence problem/kick these monsters ar dealing with.

[Fleshdancer]

29. Conversation aid: Stats on violence against women

http://www.now.org/issues/violence/stats.html

Violence Against Women in the United States

MURDER. Every day four women die in this country as a result of domestic violence, the euphemism for murders and assaults by husbands and boyfriends. That's approximately 1,400 women a year, according to the FBI. The number of women who have been murdered by their intimate partners is greater than the number of soldiers killed in the Vietnam War.

BATTERING. Although only 572,000 reports of assault by intimates are officially reported to federal officials each year, the most conservative estimates indicate two to four million women of all races and classes are battered each year. At least 170,000 of those violent incidents are serious enough to require hospitalization, emergency room care or a doctor's attention.

SEXUAL ASSAULT. Every year approximately 132,000 women report that they have been victims of rape or attempted rape, and more than half of them knew their attackers. It's estimated that two to six times that many women are raped, but do not report it. Every year 1.2 million women are forcibly raped by their current or former male partners, some more than once.

THE TARGETS. Women are 10 times more likely than men to be victimized by an intimate. Young women, women who are separated, divorced or single, low- income women and African-American women are disproportionately victims of assault and rape. Domestic violence rates are five times higher among families below poverty levels, and severe spouse abuse is twice as likely to be committed by unemployed men as by those working full time. Violent attacks on lesbians and gay men have become two to three times more common than they were prior to 1988.

IMPACT ON CHILDREN. Violent juvenile offenders are four times more likely to have grown up in homes where they saw violence. Children who have witnessed violence at home are also five times more likely to commit or suffer violence when they become adults.

IMPACT ON HEALTH AND SOCIAL SERVICES. Women who are battered have more than twice the health care needs and costs than those who are never battered. Approximately 17 percent of pregnant women report having been battered, and the results include miscarriages, stillbirths and a two to four times greater likelihood of bearing a low birth weight baby. Abused women are disproportionately represented among the homeless and suicide victims. Victims of domestic violence are being denied insurance in some states because they are considered to have a "pre-existing condition."



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

SOURCES:

"Violence Against Women: A National Crime Victimization Survey Report", U.S. Department of Justice, Washington, D.C., January 1994.
"The National Women's Study," Crime Victims Research and Treatment Center, Medical University of South Carolina, Charleston, SC, 1992.
"Five Issues In American Health," American Medical Association, Chicago, 1991.
Bullock, Linda F. and Judith McFarlane, "The Birth Weight/Battering Connection," Journal of American Nursing, September 1989.
McFarlane, Judith, et. al., "Assessing for Abuse During Pregnancy," Journal of the American Medical Association, June 17, 1992.
Federal Bureau of Investigation statistics, 1992.
Sheehan, Myra A. "An Interstate Compact on Domestic Violence: What are the Advantages?" Juvenile and Family Justice Today, 1993.
Sherman, Lawrence W. et al. Domestic Violence: Experiments and Dilemmas, 1990.
A study of five cities -- New York, Chicago, San Francisco, Boston and Minneapolis -- by the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force, published in 1992.

[donsu]

31. thank you so much for presenting this evidence

nt

[Fleshdancer]

39. the numbers are overwhelming, aren't they?

Most of us know violence against women is a problem in this country but taking the time to read the numbers is still shocking. We can't be too surprised though. Almost every single person on this forum knows at least one woman who has been hit by a man who claims to love her and many of us know of a woman who has been raped. It breaks my heart to read the stories of DU women who have experienced such a hell first hand.

[brainy]

43. Just an oversight?

Porn depicting extreme sexual violence should be ILLEGAL and treated exactly like child porn, contrary to the loophole in your sig. Where is the outrage?

[Fleshdancer]

45. the point to my sig line is that it's a quote from Mark Foley. n/t

[brainy]

58. The point of my post

is that the women's movement, including NOW, has failed its constituency by its lax 'politically correctness.' Meanwhile, far too many girls, teens and young women are being harmed by the fallout from elements of an out-of-control multibillion dollar porn industry, as described in this excellent reference report:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/porn/

Where is the organized outrage?

[brainy]

59. The point of my post

is that the women's movement, including NOW, has failed its constituency by its lax 'politically correctness.' Meanwhile, far too many girls, teens and young women are being harmed by the fallout from elements of an out-of-control multibillion dollar porn industry, as described in this excellent reference report:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/porn/

Where is the organized outrage?

[mongo]

76. Where are the actual "facts" of harm?

when the statistics don't bear them out.

Why is violence against women the highest in places with the most restrictions on sex/porn?

Porn is such a convenient scapegoat for a complex social problem.

[seabeyond]

92. good point. i dont like porn especially when made to watch,BUT

this is a good point....

[femrap]

99. Didn't Andrea Dworking and Catherine McKinney

fight against porn in the '80's and '90's to no avail. Those women fought! And I believe the ACLU fought AGAINST them.

Today's young men who sit in front of their computers jacking off are not able to have relationships with REAL women....these guys think that real women are 'just bad porn stars.'

Pandora's box has been opened....

[Name removed]

103. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[seabeyond]

105. this is where i really get pissed. if a woman is disgusted, and dont

think a whole lot about men slobbery all over themselves watching a bunch of naked women, then the male attacks the womans sexuality.

are you saying, in order for me to have a "real" man, i have to embrace porn?

[Name removed]

127. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[seabeyond]

129. lol lol.... hey

none of my business

gotta cold. going to bed. good seeing you.

still dont like those girls gone wild commercials, wink.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

147. Psst....guess what?

Every long term girlfriend (3 of them so far) I ever had was the one who made the suggestion we go rent a porn flick together.......

I've also witnessed a white bread Minnesota farm girl suggest to a group of college guys we walk down to the combat zone at 1 in the morning to get porn. Of course, we did.

Just saying.....

[seabeyond]

148. then guy.... why would you suggest there isnt a market for them

with guys gone wild.

psssst....

switchin argument around per poster

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

149. Point taken, but to clarify

It seems women prefer porn, as opposed to just beefcake. I don't consider GGW or BGW real porn, just kinda.....stupid.

[seabeyond]

150. other males dont either. interesting. help me here

flashing tits,nudity, masterbating for tv, humpin whatever is handing and nude lesbian play? and that is just what i have seen on commercial, i have never bought or watched a tape

why dont you think that is porn. confused.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

156. I think it's for college boys and semi-prudes

I've never watched it either, but I assume it's for folks who don't know there are better things out there or get off on the whole "voyeur" concept.....like reality tv, which is the audience they are playing to.

And no, it's not porn IMHO. Girls running around naked (I don't think it's as graphic with the lesbian stuff as the imply in the commercial) doesn't rise to the level of pornography in my view any more than Playboy does.

Let's just say "I know it when I see it".

[genie_weenie]

51. Interesting that all the sources are

12-16 years old.

[Fleshdancer]

53. I tried searching for more recent statistics

I can find updated information for certain States, but all the national stats I find range from 1990-2000. I'm not sure why this is.

[femrap]

100. I know why....I think that's when

GW Asshole came into power and on his first day in office closed the Women's Bureau Office in the WH.

He hates women.

[etherealtruth]

71. Incredulously, many deny the cultural misogyny ...

...that permeates our culture.

[Annces]

42. There should be some kind of education about this in the schools

I didn't know there was such rampant violence against women and children until I started seeing it around me. I think parents or schools such give information on this and what to do about it, resources and such. There are warning signs for violence in men, the hot temper, the need for control. I think the medical profession and counselors know all this, but don't really offer their advice in a public way.

[Fleshdancer]

49. I agree...

One of my most infuriating memories in high school was in sex ed. We got to the part about rape discussed in the text book and instead of reading it, the teacher actually said "the only thing I have to say about rape is - boys, why steal the milk when there are many other cows giving it away for free?" That was it. Nothing more was said. :grr: BTW, this was a female teacher saying this. I wish I had known then what I know now so I could have stood up and said something at the time.

[omega minimo]

61. OMFG

:evilfrown:

[hiaasenrocks]

57. Women are more likely to kill men than women; men the reverse

from the U.S. Justice Department Bureau of Justice Statistics

Most victims and perpetrators in homicides are male

Male offender/Male victim 65.2%
Male offender/Female victim 22.6%
Female offender/Male victim 9.7%
Female offender/Female victim 2.4%

(Comment: You can see from the numbers above that while men are more likely to be offenders and victims, when you break it down by gender, men are about 3 times more likely to attack other males than they are to attack females, while females are about 4 times as likely to attack males than females.)

More from the site:

Both male and female offenders are more likely to target male victims than female victims.

Victimization rates for both males and females have declined in recent years

-Males were almost 4 times more likely than females to be murdered in 2004

-In 2004 rates for females reached their lowest point recorded; rates for males increased slightly from the low point recorded in 2000.

More: http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/gender.htm

[Scout]

68. so what's your point? n/t

[Quantess]

75. Does there always have to be a point?

Look at the stats. Men are more likely than women to be murderers, period. Men are more likely to be murder victims than women. Women are more likely to be murdered than they are to be murderers. It's just interesting to see a comprehensive breakdown.

Oh, and a fact that wasn't posted: a murdered woman's killer is most likely a current or past husband or boyfriend, NOT a stranger.

No real point to this, except that people need to look at the facts.

[hiaasenrocks]

77. The point, quite obviously, is that facts are facts.

This is a discussion about gender and violence. Until I posted them, no one had yet posted any verfiable facts about the issue gender and homicide.

Certainly men are more likely to be the offenders, but they're also more likely to be victims of homicide. And, according to the facts, women are 4 times more likely to kill males than they are females.

If we're going to have a balanced, reason discussion, would not it be helpful to inquire as to the cause of all of that? Why are men more likely to be murderers? Why are men more likely to be victims of murder? Why are women more likely to kill men than they are women?

Perhaps it's not p/c to bring up those facts, but facts are facts. People are, of course, free to ignore the facts.

[Scout]

80. seemed an awful lot like a post trying to change to subject

from that of the OP:

violence and attacks against women and girls, perpetrated by men.

How does "pointing out" that MEN are also victims of men add to the discussion about violence against women by men?

Just seems like any time there's a post about violence against women, or rape of women, someone always has to jump in with a "yeah, but PHMT!" I just don't see how it adds to the discussion.

You can whine about PC all you want .... but that contributes nothing to the discussion either.

[lukasahero]

81. "How does ...add to the discussion about violence against women by men?"

It doesn't. It tries to invalidate the discussion. And it tries to stop the discussion - which, oddly enough, is basically the whole point of the article.

I really need to get myself a "shakes her head in wonder" emoticon - I could use it way too often here.

[Quantess]

82. I tend to disagree with you,

that posting other murder statistics "tries to invalidate the discussion". Yes, hiaasenrocks was being off-topic, but in no way did it invalidate the discussion, or stop the discussion, or trivialize murder of women. (If that's all it would take, then we would all be shutting up about now.)

No matter how you stack it, it's clear that men are more likely to murder than women are. Blacks are also more likely to be murder victims than whites. That's another off-topic tidbit that does absolutely nothing to invalidate the original post. Anyway, I think being overly defensive of statistics may actually serve to discredit an argument.

[omega minimo]

86. "overly defensive of statistics...."

"Anyway, I think being overly defensive of statistics may actually serve to discredit an argument."


:rofl:

that's a new one!

[lukasahero]

112. "no way did it invalidate the discussion, or stop the discussion"

I don't know. I'm looking at this thread after these types of statistics were presented and I don't really see much discussion about violence against women and what we can do about it.

I have twice posted links to the article author's web site and his organization created to address just this issue and neither post has beeen responded to by anyone here never mind the poster who was asking what he could do about the violence against women.

I have posted a link and text to the author of the article's "10 things men can do..." to stop the violence against women and not a single poster has responded to it.

I have posted a link and text to the book the author of the article wrote that discusses in great length that this is a MEN's issue, not just a woman's one and not a single poster has responded to it.

Now the thread has devolved into how many men are killed vs. how many women and no one is talking about what we can do to stop the violence. I don't understand why so many people just don't care about that and would rather argue over who has it worse.

Yes, men are killing men too. Maybe someone should start a thread about it.

[femrap]

101. I want that emoticon too!

Make sure you trademark it....you'll make a fortune!!!!

[hiaasenrocks]

115. The facts I posted are relevant

because the OP leaves one with false impressions about the issue of gender and violence.

It's sad, actually, that someone would use the recent school shootings to advance an agenda, but I guess some people see everything through a political lens.

[omega minimo]

85. Why indeed

"Why are men more likely to be murderers?"
"Why are men more likely to be victims of murder?"

"Why are women more likely to kill men than they are women?"

In self-defense.

[Quantess]

87. I recall a discussion with a previous boyfriend...

A great guy, a funny guy, but he was not so well informed about the sociology of men and women (or whatever you'd call that particular -ology).

I believe we were watching some TV show about a woman poisoned her husband, or something. At some point in the discussion, I had to inform him that a man is far, far more likely to be a murderer than a woman is. He soaked that in, nodded in appreciation, then replied, "maybe that's because women are smarter at not getting caught". Yeah, right. All I could do was laugh. Some guys are hopeless at admitting men are more violent and murderous.

[hiaasenrocks]

117. I doubt that sweeping generalization has

any factual basis. I'll wait for the evidence.

[omega minimo]

126. What kind of "sweeping generalization"

is that in your sig line?

"Nothing brings out the cavalry like strippers in distress."

[hiaasenrocks]

201. LOL

That's a quote from a Carl Hiaasen book, and like everything he writes, it's satire. In the novel, a crime is committed at a strip club and the police show up. They're immediately distracted from the investigation by the presence of the dancers.

Nice try with the sarcastic rebuttal, but no dice.

Perhaps you're prepared to back up your "self defense" claim with stats. We'll see...

[ComerPerro]

106. Oh God, not another "men bad, women good" thread. WTF

[omega minimo]

128. Another attempt to discuss women's issues-- until the attackers swoop in

[Name removed]

130. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[proud2BlibKansan]

157. Comer is a friend of mine

and he is not an attacker. Far from it. LOL

[omega minimo]

166. I would hope not (attacker). That's all he's shown me tho and it seems

unhinged

[proud2BlibKansan]

167. He is a very sweet and gentle man

Not unhinged and definitely NOT an attacker.

[seabeyond]

178. aaahhhhh. that is nice to hear. thanks for sharing n/t

[Quantess]

162. Would you dare

What if there was a recent rash of white perps invading schools, terrorizing and shooting black teenagers?
Then if a thread was posted, calling attention it, would you dare barge into the thread and post anything snarky?

[ComerPerro]

163. There hasn't been a recent spree of inflammatory, racist threads here

but these sexist threads pop up about once a week.

[omega minimo]

168. Some of the people under racist attack give up on GD. Some women don't.

Anytime we try to discuss women's issues we are accused of "sexist threads" or worse.

[Quantess]

173. It's sad

that a sincere effort at discussing either racism or sexism would so easily disintegrate into flames.
I saw this thread from the start, and it didn't take long before someone barged in with "you hate me because I'm a man" tripe, and some DUers took the bait, and they helped make it seem like it's just all a shrill man-hating thread. It's like watching an old married couple talk!

I would have liked to see more productive discussion, and less flames. If people are interested in discussing the phenomena of men terrorizing and shooting teenage girls, or, violence toward women in general, then let's discuss it without getting snarky or making blanket statements about all men or all women.

[seabeyond]

179. this was in answer to a deleted sub,and i put a lot of time in reply

your one thing was calling out to be attack. you knew what you were doing when you made that post comer. look, i don't care about all this but to act innocent, or victim doesn't fly. going along with your last couple posts, i don't much embrace victimizing anyone..... but your post stating women good, men bad..... is a tad bit of an exaggeration, yet you want it taken as fact. not going to honor that either

i imagine men are tired of the general feel of attack that has built over the last handful of years. i imagine the christians are too. maybe you ought to empathize that this very attack that you feel is what the women on this board are discussing they feel. and maybe with that empathy, i you.... you me.... we are better set to work together

as a christian i can TOTALLY understand the anger at christians. (a subject i can talk about seeing i am christian. being male i cannot, not being male) some christians get pissed when the christian gets bashed on this board. i do not. i empathize with the anger. i know where it is coming from and why. i also know their is validity to the anger. i do not take it personally, because my christian belief totally is not in par with the groups that are angry people. i am angry at them too

my point. there is an issue with male and their behavior with women. and the escalation of hate and control (dominance) over female since bushco took over, (that macho, old testament male) has certainly risen its ugly head in this nation. we also see it with minorities too.

this is a reality we get to be angry about. including you. even though you are male, you too get to be angry about this bullshit male we are all suffering from

male has got to deal with male. i absolutely agree with you that we women need you men. i so value the men that are the true example of what being a man is. i have been around that male all my life. i live with that male. and i know we need you. and i do appreciate and value. it is not all ornothing here.

i believe as a christian i have the responsibility and obligation to the non christian to deal with christian. the only way we as christians can heal

with issues with women,.... i am a believer i have a responsibility to deal with my gender. and i do... whenever i see the need. like a female making herself a victim and other areas

but..... your post was exactly asking for what you got. you created. to be bothered by it... is to not take responsibility for your part

[omega minimo]

189. if we could all work on discussing the topic rather than at each other

that would be a start.....

[Quantess]

195. I agree!

I haven't been around DU for the last couple of months, and from my perspective, men vs. women flames were not this bad.
Apparently, there is a group-self-fulfilling prophecy, that any attempt at discussing sexism is going to burst into flames.

[seabeyond]

197. only if we are in battle. and i chose not to be. after all... i have a

father, two brothers, husband and two sons, and four nephews i love with all my heart. doesnt include all my many male friends. now, how would it behoove me to battle male

[rman]

111. still, more women then men are killed

in violent crimes.

[Quantess]

161. Actually, the opposite is true

Men are more also more likely to be murder victims. It's under the sex/gender heading.

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/homtrnd.htm

[G_j]

70. right on, K&R

VERY important topic

[aikoaiko]

72. tell jackson not to worry, men still kill more men than women overall.

although it is bizarre how the white boy/man school shootings since the mid 90s often involve a failed heterosexual relationships.

Homicide trends in the U.S. http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/gender.htm
Trends by gender
Most victims and perpetrators in homicides are male
Male offender/Male victim 65.2%
Male offender/Female victim 22.6%
Female offender/Male victim 9.7%
Female offender/Female victim 2.4%

eta: whoops hiaasenrocks already presented this data with more analsis -- good job hiaasenrocks

[Hell Hath No Fury]

88. So, about all those men killing men...

how many of those murders are committed because one man is killing the other for being a man????? Not because he holds a grudge against him, not because he's involved in a drug deal, not because he's involved in a home invasion? How many men see another man and think to themselves, "I am going to target that man for violence because he has a dick."

You are using statistics that are only general -- they do NOT address the motives of those crimes.

So, a man shoots another man because he cut him off in traffic. A man walks into a schoolhouse, asks the boys to leave and shoots young girls because they are female. Your statistics would not correctly reflect the difference between those two crimes.

[aikoaiko]

96. ahh, yes, the generic nature of statistics...

but that is how Katz and several of the other posters in this very thread make the case that there is a vast misognynist conspiracy -- they cite stats that men kill women. Of course those stats do not speak to motive any more than mine do.

I'm not sure you can make the case that most of the women killed by men were killed because they had vaginas. You really don't know the motivation of that mentally ill person either who had the boys leave, but assaulted and killed the girl.

Instead of focusing on men killing women, I'm more interested in talking about men killing men and women.

Look at Katz's logic. Men kill women and thats a crisis. I happen to agree that there is a horribly high amount of violence of men against women, but men are dying at the hands of men 3 times more often. So if the amount of women being killed by men is a crisis, men killing men must certainly be a worse crisis.

Again, I'm not arguing that we shouldn't look at men killing women, but I'd like that conversation to include men killing men too. That is -- look at male aggression.

[Irreverend IX]

109. Very few murders are committed because the victim is female.

About the only examples are crazies like Ted Bundy and the guys in CO and PA. Most other man-on-woman murders are domestic violence type stuff, where the man is taking out his grievances and feelings of insecurity by attacking a significant other. Same type of thing that drives people to kill their bosses or friends or co-workers. You can't say that the people in those cases kill their victims *because* they're women, because if that were the case they would be committing crimes of opportunity,attacking random women they don't know. That's how racial killings and other true hate crimes often work--the perps kill members of minority groups just because they hate members of those groups and see a chance to kill. The serial killers mentioned above fit that mold, but most male murderers of women don't because they have motives other than "she's female."

[VelmaD]

84. here are some facts

from the UN:
The study cited surveys on violence against women conducted in at least 71 countries showing "a significant proportion of women suffer physical, sexual or psychological violence...On average, at least one in three women is subjected to intimate partner violence in the course of her lifetime."

If that's not an epidemic of violence against women...what is?

Here's a link to more:
http://sg.news.yahoo.com/061010/1/43ytm.html

Link to full text:
http://daccessdds.un.org/doc/UNDOC/GEN/N06/419/74/PDF/N0641974.pdf?OpenElement

[Nikki Stone 1]

93. That's not even counting the molestations

of little girls by men they know, usually in the family

[entanglement]

89. "Angry white men against defenseless young girls?"

:eyes:

I expected better from Counterpunch. I'm still clueless about how a ribbon can stop violence against women, btw.

[femrap]

102. Well maybe if we tied that little white ribbon around the

male wee-wee, we could solve this problem.

This crisis of male masculinity is going to end Planet Earth. We have got to get a grip and stop the violence....men are becoming obsolete...you're causing more problems than you're worth. After all, we have those little 'coasters' that we put under the furniture....so we don't even need you for moving the furniture.

You've made quite a mess of this planet....and there are lots of men who agree with me. The violence must stop. NOW.

[greeneyedboy]

110. thank you. i was wondering when someone would point this out.

compare with Columbine: every person in the nation knows that the shooters were members of a certain group in school, and the victims were the more conformist group.

but with this, there's barely a peep of analysis of the common thread of misogyny, the stats on murder-suicides, the stats on women's experience of violence (usually involves someone she knows, one of the most common causes of death for women--maybe most common cause of death in the workplace for women?). the silence is deafening.

[Jed Dilligan]

118. "Angry white men"

I'm not so sure gender violence is a white thing... I'd say it crosses all boundaries.

Not sure what I can do about it--other than stop it if I see it happening. Or try.

My own feelings of violent rage are exclusively directed at other males--just as my sexual feelings are exclusively directed at females. I couldn't hurt a woman if I wanted to. Any man close enough for me to smell is in danger of getting cold-cocked. I wonder if these nuts who attack women are self-hating gays in denial? (Wonder the same thing about homophobes.)

[seabeyond]

121. interesting. i love your sharing. i think mens role is....

(i have always had very good, loving and protective males in my life)

talking ot my husband about this issue, and his helpless, what can man do? i tell him we women need you men, men like you. and when some male is boasting and braggin how he raped that girl, (he may not use the word rape, but a male knows) or some other behavior that you know within bothers you, you speak out.

and teach your sons, and set example with you mate.

that is your role. and it would and does help tremendously.

my man, my father, do a wonderful job setting example of what male is. because my father was soooo good, probably why my expectation so high, and i was able to find a man like mine

i also believe women have a part in this too. and i believe as a woman it is my job not to allow the woman to be victim, powerless, nor other things women do, that is role of my gender to press them on

i dont feel it is a battle between gender. if it is,no one will ever win. it has got to be a win win for all, or will never work. we will all be losers.

i liked your post

[lukasahero]

123. Your own homophobia is showing

"Any man close enough for me to smell is in danger of getting cold-cocked." Are you serious? Are you really that afraid of your feelings that a man just being too near you is a threat? (And people say women hate men. :shrug:)

"I wonder if these nuts who attack women are self-hating gays in denial? (Wonder the same thing about homophobes.)" Why is it easier to blame gays than to even consider the idea that maybe some straight men actually do hate women?

[Jed Dilligan]

125. Maybe, I don't know

I have an instinctive reaction to the smell of males--fight or flight.

I can hug close male friends. It doesn't feel as good as hugging a woman--not the same kind of comfort. But if it's by mutual consent and being done to express a bond of love or friendship, it's fine.

If a strange male or someone I don't like gets close enough for me to smell his maleness, I am ready to hurt him. My fists clench and my blood boils up. The same thing doesn't happen to me with females.

I think if someone hates women, he isn't straight--to me being "straight" means that I love women. Prefer them to men on every single conceivable level. "Blaming the gays" is hardly the issue.

[Annces]

134. That is an interesting statement, that to you, being straight

means to love women. When I think of examples of some straight men that mistreat women, I think it is because they see women or the woman they are with as a measure of their own masculinity or place in society. So if a woman talks back to them, or makes them feel reduced in some way, then they get upset. And also that some men see gorgeous women and want them, because that is also a reinforcement that they, the man, are capable of getting the "best" woman. So again, the woman serves a tool for their own aggrandizement.

I once knew a doctor who was married several times, and anytime a beautiful woman was in the department, he would make some kind of advance to her. There was one exceptionally beautiful technician that was helping him with some xrays. She was a real cool type of person, not someone he could make advances toward. He got very discombobulated being around such a beautiful woman, that he got the xrays all mixed up and I had to spend several hours getting things back in order. I would not say that he really loved women. I think he loved beautiful women, because to have one of them, increased his prestige in his own eyes.

So to your original statement about a true straight man loving women, I think you are right in terms of them loving the whole woman, not just the physical aspect or the parts that build up his own ego.

[lukasahero]

141. Yet I saw it in the opposite way

- that to the poster being gay meant hating women. Whereas I would explain being gay as being sexually attracted to the same sex. Why the negative frame rather than the positive?

Straight/gay refers to who you are attracted to, not who you hate.

[Annces]

151. I could see it that way too, if I changed my perspective

I guess I was just happy to see someone who espousing that being straight to him meant really loving women, not just loving the sex aspect of women.

[Jed Dilligan]

174. Yes, I am struck by how few men

are actually "straight" by my definition.

I should also say, I honor and admire the gay men who are proud and open about whom they love and how.

[marions ghost]

140. why do you suppose you got that way?

:wow:

I can't understand your statement that you would hurt a man who got physically close to you.

The men in my family are not like that at all. They are not gay, but very comfortable with other men, even gay men.

What's goin on there? Do you know?

[Jed Dilligan]

172. I'm more comfortable with gay men than straight men

But in general, three feet of room, please. I have a few male friends, gay and straight. They can hug me if a hug is appropriate. But I will beat the living shit out of anyone who gets too close to me. If I was a woman saying this no one would bat an eye.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

191. Good thing you don't take mass transit.

[Jed Dilligan]

194. I do

just not during rush hour.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

199. I guess it's not as crowded over there.

I live in NYC, where trains are frequently packed, even at midnight during the week. I also have some personal space issues, but necessity trumps insecurity, at least for me.

Hell, by now, I'm used to it.

[marions ghost]

192. hmmmmm OK

We can leave it at that. It looks like it's not a fear of gays, which is what I thought. Without over-analyzing here I wonder if you had a violent older brother or male family member. It seems like an aversive response that wouldn't be typical of most men unless there was a history of extreme competition or violence. No need to respond. I'm just interested in how male bonding occurs. Forgive me for being too curious. At this point, sounds like you'd do well to stick with women :)

[Jed Dilligan]

193. Just an outcast kid

fighting all the time in the schoolyards and locker rooms because I wouldn't or couldn't join a clique.

There's more of us than you think. We are often found fixing your computers and sometimes teaching you classes in college.

The mainstream, jock-type males in this country, I just steer clear of--and they'd be advised to return the favor!

[seabeyond]

196. hey... i have an intellectual, little 11 yr old just this afternoon

talking to me about the group of boys that always have to be pulling the back of his hair or jabbing him with a pencil or pen. use to be fingers, now they use object, when they stand behind a kid..... why? just cause it is fun. and do it to a lot of the boys.

cant tell on the kids. not allowed to fight. told him, in front of teacher, yell as loud has he can knock that fuckin shit off....

he will be sent into office and asked why? and he can tell the principal why and he and others are tired of it. then something can be done. even though he will have to do a punishment.

boys...... shakin head here.

lol lol from your story, you should be totally empathic to womenand what we are saying

[marions ghost]

203. sounds like you'd like

to see boys raised differently, as a lot of women would.

OK I see, so you were abused by your social group, rather than family. It can be just as damaging.

You aren't alone. All society suffers from the abuses of excess Alpha-male dominance behavior.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

144. Only someone incredibly dense would not see it

Sorry, but it doesn't have to be spelled out for all of us. I think we can figure that these particular scum had some problem with women/females.

Anyone who kills someone not in self-defense simply because of what they are....white, black, man, woman, gay, preppie, jock, Jew, Muslim, Catholic, child......is committing a hate crime. We need to stop picking and choosing groups of victims, and look at intent and why anyone is targeted. Hate knows no bounds, and progessives should know that.

[Jim Stark]

164. more women

need to be armed.

[Dora]

183. Are you suggesting...

... that men are so powerless over their own behavior that guns are the only way to effectively stop men from attacking or murdering women?

I would hope that a few men out there might disagree with you.

[Bucky]

187. I'm gonna put myself in the reporters' shoes. Since elements of this crime

were clearly copycatted from the previous week's psycho in Colorado, I personally would be pretty skittish about publicizing a pathology in this crime that might prove to be an inspiration to another nutcase in another town with a sick hatred against women.

[piedmont]

198. The stats seem encouraging to me....

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/intimates.htm#intprop

Lots of info at this site, and it's been linked once in this thread already. What I noticed is that overall, the homicide rate is down, and improvements in some areas are quite dramatic.
Homicide of intimates is down, particularly of males. The rate of homicides of intimates among black victims has fallen quite a lot since the late 1970s. Also interesting is that the rate of homicide of intimates for male and female victims were more similar in the 1970s, but because of the steeper decline of male victims the rates are now higher for women. Still, there's been a 40% drop in female victims of homicide overall.