A Few Final Thoughts and Words (about what has occurred)

[mmonk]

First off, let me say how I love all of you and DU. We've been through quite a bit over the years. Even when we've disagreed, it's been fun and rewarding like during the 2004 campaign and the running battles between the Deaniacs, Kerry supporters, Clarkies, etc.. And there has been real horror and dismay we've shared from shock and awe, beheadings, voting fraud, anthrax mailings, torture pictures from Abu Ghraib, C.I.A. outings, and the Sibel Edmunds gag order.

I have worried an awful lot as I have seen the deterioration of democracy here while hearing falsely we're about spreading democracy to the world. Now we've gone from dark clouds to the brightness of a sweep of the House and the Senate. But alas, for me, a few clouds are still hovering. I guess it's the talk by some about there being no place at the table for liberals concerning our governance. Maybe it's because my neighbors that are legal residents are being gathered up. Or most likely, that those responsible for crimes against my constitution as well as federal laws and statutes may escape the remedy of impeachment the constitution provides us, some of them AGAIN. Yes, they have been investigated before. Yes, they have been through testimony before congress before. But here some of them are again. You see, without the full weight of the constitution behind us, we are mere spectators like at a sporting event. We're there watching, but we affect nothing going on.

In closing, I want to leave you with a remembrance of a few images, things, and a request. Perhaps you remember the picture of a prone corpse with a smiling soldier giving the thumbs up? Maybe you remember snarling dogs, piles of naked men, or hooded prisoners with electrodes. Perhaps also, hearing of the screams of children being raped or the mass grave at a soccer field. I give you a request made by Dave Lindorf and Barbara Olshansky that when the democrats take over the congress, tell them to hold the administration accountable or they will be voted out in the next election. Perhaps you have heard of Camp Iguana at Gitmo. It is a prison where boys as young as 7 have been taken. Well, one of them hung himself three days before his release date because he was not told a lawyer had gained his release (the aforementioned Barbara Olshansky). So let that image stay with you. A boy hanging in an empty cell by his neck. Three days from a chance of being able to live a full life. Three days from knowing someone was there. Three days before knowing someone inquired about him. Three days from no longer wondering when he would die. Three days from hope.

Hold them accountable.

[mother earth]

1. Eloquently put, I agree wholeheartedly. Hold them accountable!

:kick: :kick: :kick:

[5X]

2. a k and an r too. n/t

[McKenzie]

3. I agree with you about them getting away with their crimes

Bush and all the big players who conspired in the horrors you mentioned will not be brought to justice. A few minor players might take the blame but Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld going to prison? Wake up people it is just not going to happen in the US.

[mmonk]

4. I didn't mention anything about going to prison.

I did mention impeachment, if for nothing else, as a duty, an accounting, a message to those governing, and an introduction of a whole new reality to your neighbors that might be living in a bubble like many others.

[McKenzie]

5. I do not believe that will happen either.

If it did happen and there was no prison sentence at the end of it, assuming guilt was proven, what would be the point apart from "as a duty, an accounting, a message to those governing"?

I'm not being confrontational here - I just fail to see the point of impeachment if the outcome does not accord with the purpose of justice which is to punish the guilty. I see little benefit in introducing a whole new reality to neighbours either. Those who are in the know don't need to be told and those who don't are unlikely to gain anything as regards understanding.

To reiterate I am not being confrontational.

[mmonk]

6. Not to impeach the most impeachable

is to not fix the system. The next tyrant is just around the corner with a playbook which the no impeachment plan provides.

[mmonk]

7. also, impeachment is not a punishment,

impeachment is a constitutional protection remedy.

[uppityperson]

8. Hold all of them accountable

even ones like my democratic senator that continues to support the occupation of Iraq (Cantwell). Keep the pressure on ALL congress.

[mmonk]

9. A qualifier (update) to this post.

In order to better qualify this, I don't want this seen as a "depends on what the meaning of is is" thread. Therefore the following:
1. If is does not mean is in the phrase "impeachment is off the table" as many say (investigations will lead to impeachment and is implied), then I have no issues with Pelosi's statements or the overall plan.
2. If is means is in the statement "impeachment is off the table" no matter what is in the investigations, I'm opposed to the plan.
3. If the plan is to pass legislation that is popular to get the president to accept or veto and see if there are enough votes to override for the next two years, I'm against it if there is no effort to hold them accountable.
4. If the request through inference is I should accept the plan to be a loyal democrat if it doesn't include a possibilty of impeachment, I'm disinclined to acquiesce to that request.
5. The part about voting them out if they don't hold them accountable was a request from Lindorf and Olshansky from an interview on book TV, not me. I'm a loyal democrat.

peace