Illegal Immigrants email from my Freeper brother, help me respond!

[Bettie]

I would love to reply to this more thoughtfully than just telling my brother that he's a racist a-hole (which he is).

These statistics seem like they are either a. totally made up, or b. picked and chosen with context eliminated to make it look like they want it to.

Help, please!

Bettie!

Email text below!

************************************************************
If This doesn't open your eyes... nothing will....

>From the L.A Times:

1. 40% of all workers in L.A. County ( L.A. County has 10.2 million people)are working for cash and not paying taxes. This was because they are predominantly illegal immigrants, working without a green card.


2. 95% of warrants for murder in Los Angeles are for illegal aliens.

3. 75% of people on the most wanted list in Los Angeles are illegal aliens.

4. Over 2/3 of all births in Los Angeles County are to illegal alien Mexicans on Medi-Cal, whose births were paid for by taxpayers.

5. Nearly 25% of all inmates in California detention centers are Mexican nationals here illegally.

6. Over 300,000 illegal aliens in Los Angeles County are living in garages.

7. The FBI reports half of all gang members in Los Angeles are most likely illegal aliens from south of the border.

8. Nearly 60% of all occupants of HUD properties are illegal.

9. 21 radio stations in L.A. are Spanish speaking.

10. In L.A. County 5.1 million people speak English. 3.9 million speak Spanish (There are 10.2 million people in L.A. County).

(All the above from the Los Angeles Times)

Less than 2% of illegal aliens are picking our crops, but 29% are on welfare.

Over 70% of the United States ' annual population growth (and over 90% of California , Florida , and New York ) results from immigration.

The cost of immigration to the American taxpayer in 1997 was, (after subtracting taxes immigrants pay), a NET $70 BILLION/year, . The lifetime fiscal impact (taxes paid minus services used) for the average adult Mexican immigrant is a NEGATIVE number.

29% of inmates in federal prisons are illegal aliens.

If they can come to this country to raise Hell and demonstration by the thousands, Why can't they take charge over the corruption in their own country?

We are a bunch of fools for letting this continue.

THE U.S. VS MEXICO :

On February 15, 1998, the U.S. and Mexican soccer teams met at the Los Angeles Coliseum. The crowd was overrwhelmingly pro-Mexican even though most lived in this country. They booed during the National Anthem and U.S. flags were held upside down. As the match progressed, supporters of the U.S. team were insulted, pelted with projectiles, punched and spat upon. Beer and trash were thrown at the U.S. players before and after the match. The coach of the U.S. team, Steve Sampson said, "This was the most painful experience I have ever had in this profession."

Did you know that immigrants from Mexico and other non-European countries can come to this country and get preferences in jobs, education, and government contracts. It's called affirmative action or racial rivilege.
The Emperor of Japan or the President of Mexico could migrate here and immediately be eligible for special rights unavailable for Americans of European descent.

Corporate America has signed on to the idea that minorities and third world immigrants should get special, privileged status. Some examples are Exxon, Texaco, Merrill Lynch, Boeing, Paine Weber, Starbucks and many more.

DID YOU KNOW?: That Mexico regularly intercedes on the side of the defense in criminal cases involving Mexican nationals? Did you know that Mexico has NEVER extradited a Mexican national accused of murder in the U.S. in spite of agreements to do so? According to the L.A. Times, Orange County , California is home to 275 gangs with 17,000 members; 98% of which are Mexican and Asian. How's your county doing?

According to a New York Times article dated May 19, 1994, 20 years after the great influx of legal immigrants from Southeast Asia , 30% are still on welfare compared to 8% of households nationwide. A Wall Street Journal editorial dated December 5, 1994 quotes law enforcement officials as stating that Asian mobsters are the "greatest criminal challenge the country faces." Not bad for a group that is still under 5% of the population.

Is education important to you? Here are the words of a teacher who spent over 20 years in the Los Angeles School system. "Imagine teachers in classes containing 30-40 students of widely varying attention spans and motivation, many of whom aren't fluent in English. Educators seek learning materials likely to reach the majority of students and that means fewer words and math problems and more pictures and multicultural references."

WHEN I WAS YOUNG: I remember hearing about the immigrants that came through Ellis Island . They wanted to learn English. They wanted to breathe free. They wanted to become Americans. Now, far too many immigrants come here with demands. They demand to be taught in their own language They demand special privileges--affirmative action. They demand ethnic studies that glorify their culture.

HOW CAN YOU HELP? Send copies of this letter to at least two other people,100 would be even better.

[proud2BlibKansan]

1. Snopes.com

Go there before you ask for help here. That is quicker.

[Bettie]

2. Thanks! I was on my way there, just now!

But i didn't find it my first time through!

[babylonsister]

3. Here's the snopes link:

http://www.snopes.com/politics/immigration/taxes.asp

[Bettie]

5. Thank you!

I was having trouble locating the right one, partially due to children climbing all over me! :-)

[Fire Walk With Me]

4. "Grow up. Then we'll talk." How's that?

[Howardx]

6. here ya go

http://www.snopes.com/politics/immigration/taxes.asp

[Snot Hannity]

7. Proof ?

Ask him to prove each and every one of his allegations with documented evidence from reliable sources. Till then nothing he says has any merit.

[noamnety]

8. Send him to snopes

http://www.snopes.com/politics/immigration/taxes.asp

I wouldn't even engage in a point by point discussion. Just send the snopes link, and ask him to please not forward chain mail to you, because the majority of it is rubbish with made up or distorted "facts" and he ought to get in the habit of fact-checking things before he further distributes them. And advise him to let the person who sent the stuff to him know the information is factually incorrect, so they don't further damage their own credibility as well as his. Often it takes less time to debunk it than it takes to even read the full email.

[warrens]

28. Isn't it amazing how often these things are 180 degrees from the truth

The maggots on the right have no facts, so they make shit up and then amplify it through their echo chamber until they can demand that you prove it's not true. Asshole maggots.

[Tyler Durden]

9. Can't help you.

Any Freepers in my family are no longer talked to, and I never respond to right wing email.

[KingFlorez]

10. That's just insane

Who wrote that mess? David Duke?

[Bryn]

11. I got same thing from my FReeper sister

I sent her the link from snopes! :hi:

[roamer65]

12. California is American-occupied Mexico.

That ought to rattle your freeper brother. California was taken during a war of aggression on Mexico in 1846. I notice that this email focuses on LA. I still have to question whether or not LA is really "ours".

[truedelphi]

23. I'm not sure that would rattle anyone

Including me,who is opposed to rampant open borders and the resulting tragedies.

If California was still Mexican-held territoiry, the people from Mexico City would not be coming to California.

They would be going to Illinois or somewhere else that provides a high level of welfare services.

[Cleita]

37. Why do you keep repeating that.? They can't get welfare unless

they are legal residents or citizens. Believe me the government workers who hand out these programs are just as apprehensive to give American tax money to those who are entitled to it anymore than you think they should get it.

[truedelphi]

41. See my reply to you Post number 40

[Cleita]

27. For his information here is how LA got it's name.

In 1781 Spanish settlers founded El Pueblo de Nuestra Señora la Reina de Los Angeles de Porciúncula (The Town of Our Lady the Queen of the Angels of Porciúncula). It became known as La Ciudad de los Angeles (City of Angels), and then just as Los Angeles.

Parts of the original settlement still exist. It's known as Olivera Street. Up the road in Santa Barbara, San Luis Obispo and Moneterey the original Spanish missions are preserved and still in use. I live in San Luis Obispo county and sometimes I go to lunch in town sitting outdoors by the creek. The Mission is on the other side of the creek and plays the tower bells at noon. Then I go walk in the mission's garden.

It helps to keep me grounded in my own Spanish heritage.

[truedelphi]

31. I'm not disputing the previous ownership of California

It was Spanish then Mexican then ours

What I am saying is that when a hispanic newly arrived immigrant tells me that
they have every right to be here, and they also have every right to not assimilate, (ie not learn English) I want to ask them this:
if Mexico still owned California,and therefore theere was no $ 500 a month AFDC payment, no housing voucher and no food stamps, would they have even bothered to come by plane from Mexico City to San Rafel, CA

or would they have purchased a plane ticket to Chicago instead?

[Cleita]

36. For one thing they can't get those benefits unless they are here legally.

The American government workers just don't hand them over until they are background checked and entitled to them. The biggest immigrant demography to benefit from these programs were Asians in the last century that we took in after destroying their countries in war. They were here legally and entitled to those programs.

Also, most of the immigrants from Latin America are native Americans, the underclass in every country down there except maybe Peru and Bolivia. They have Spanish names because the missionaries converted them to Christianity making them give up their native names and religion. Yet, many of them still speak the indigenous languages of their people in addition to Spanish.

My mother was Chilean upper class. My American father of German descent. Yet, it's not the people from my class who immigrate here to work in the fields and in people's houses to clean their toilets and mow their lawns. These are the underclass of Native Americans of these countries. Just because white people drew up borders doesn't make them any less entitled to live and work in the land of their ancestors.

If anyone should leave it's us by the criteria being set up by those who feel they have first entitlement here. Another thing in the Southwest a majority of the people with Spanish names in California, Arizona, New Mexico, Texas and Colorado have never been in Mexico or Latin America nor have their ancestors. The indigenous people here who have Spanish names and speak Spanish do so because of the missionaries.

Just let me explain. What many white Americans think is Spanish or Mexican food is Indian food, the tamales, the tortillas, the chilis and the beans. My Spanish family never ate those things. We ate beef, pork, seafood, olives and everything was drowning in garlic and olive oil.

The colorful clothing, the serapes, ponchos and embroidered skirts are all Native American in derivation. So really, these people have more right to this country than we do.

[truedelphi]

40. Your headline is not based on facts

>>For one thing they can't get those benefits unless they are here >>legally.


In california a state judge ruled that they can get the same benefits -- that is, that an undocumented individual possesses the same rights
as a legalized citizen to receive AFDC,food stamps, health ins. benefits, housing vouchers. This judicial judgement overthrew the voters' decision regarding Propostion 187.

Green ccard, no green card, citizenship, no citizenship - makes no difference.

It is legally required for every social services office in California to post a sign to the fact that your immigration status does not preclude you as a determining factor from receiving aid.

[Cleita]

42. And neither is your answer. Apparently there are groups who

are trying to get food stamps to immigrants and yet they are having a problem getting them to apply.

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-stamp13oct13,1,224178.story?ctrack=1&cset=true

Other immigrants say they were simply embarrassed.

"The Mexican man is macho. He doesn't want to come to this country and beg," said Alfonso Chavez, the Community Action Partnership's outreach coordinator. "I tell them this is a program that will help the children. The kids are American-born, and they have a right to this program."

A Los Angeles County Department of Social Services task force is looking at ways to find eligible families to enroll. County workers have signed up families at food banks with only minor success.

"We recognize that people in Orange County are ahead of us," said task force member Bruce Rankin, the executive director of the Westside Food Bank in Los Angeles. "The rest of us in the state are looking at Orange County for ideas." Low participation, he said, "is a dilemma in the state."

The federal government estimates 60% of eligible households participate in the food stamp program nationally. In California, the participation rate drops sharply. A study of 2003 participation rates by Mathematica Policy Research, a nonpartisan research group, showed that 34% of California's working poor participated in the program that year, the third lowest percentage among the 50 states.

There are 30,000 households in Orange County that receive food stamps, federal officials said.

Contrary to your assertion, they don't seem to want our charity.

[sinkingfeeling]

13. Ask him for proof of each of his 'stated facts'.

[treestar]

14. Hopefully some help

************************************************************
If This doesn't open your eyes... nothing will....

>From the L.A Times:

1. 40% of all workers in L.A. County ( L.A. County has 10.2 million people)are working for cash and not paying taxes. This was because they are predominantly illegal immigrants, working without a green card.

Patently false. Also, US citizens sometimes work under the table, for various reasons. Before there was a penalty on the books for hiring illegals (1986) illegal aliens even paid their taxes.

2. 95% of warrants for murder in Los Angeles are for illegal aliens.

Patently false.

3. 75% of people on the most wanted list in Los Angeles are illegal aliens.

Patently false.

4. Over 2/3 of all births in Los Angeles County are to illegal alien Mexicans on Medi-Cal, whose births were paid for by taxpayers.

Patently false. How many USCs and legals are there? Still more than 1/3, these statistics are so exaggerated they are obviously false.

5. Nearly 25% of all inmates in California detention centers are Mexican nationals here illegally.

Obviously false.

6. Over 300,000 illegal aliens in Los Angeles County are living in garages.

Silly and probably false but unprovable and if so, so what? Who are they hurting?

7. The FBI reports half of all gang members in Los Angeles are most likely illegal aliens from south of the border.

No way, patently false, most gang members were likely born right in LA.

8. Nearly 60% of all occupants of HUD properties are illegal.

Impossible. Illegals do not qualify and cannot prove they qualify for all the government benefits they are alleged to take place.

9. 21 radio stations in L.A. are Spanish speaking.

Remotely possible in a market with 30 million people and if so, so what? English stations are allowed and are more numerous.

10. In L.A. County 5.1 million people speak English. 3.9 million speak Spanish (There are 10.2 million people in L.A. County).

And some people speak both.

(All the above from the Los Angeles Times)

Less than 2% of illegal aliens are picking our crops, but 29% are on welfare.

Made up. Somebody's "personal observation."

Over 70% of the United States ' annual population growth (and over 90% of California , Florida , and New York ) results from immigration.

Probably can be easily refuted by going to the site for the US Census.

The cost of immigration to the American taxpayer in 1997 was, (after subtracting taxes immigrants pay), a NET $70 BILLION/year, . The lifetime fiscal impact (taxes paid minus services used) for the average adult Mexican immigrant is a NEGATIVE number.

Can never be quantified, and perhaps they cost nothing and even contribute, at least, for all we know. This "statistic" would be arrived at by consideration of selected factors only.

29% of inmates in federal prisons are illegal aliens.

Impossible.

If they can come to this country to raise Hell and demonstration by the thousands, Why can't they take charge over the corruption in their own country?

Doesn't really follow.

We are a bunch of fools for letting this continue.

THE U.S. VS MEXICO :

On February 15, 1998, the U.S. and Mexican soccer teams met at the Los Angeles Coliseum. The crowd was overrwhelmingly pro-Mexican even though most lived in this country. They booed during the National Anthem and U.S. flags were held upside down. As the match progressed, supporters of the U.S. team were insulted, pelted with projectiles, punched and spat upon. Beer and trash were thrown at the U.S. players before and after the match. The coach of the U.S. team, Steve Sampson said, "This was the most painful experience I have ever had in this profession."

LOL, one event on one day and the impression of one very right wing freeper on what was going on, even.

Did you know that immigrants from Mexico and other non-European countries can come to this country and get preferences in jobs, education, and government contracts. It's called affirmative action or racial rivilege.

Silly.

The Emperor of Japan or the President of Mexico could migrate here and immediately be eligible for special rights unavailable for Americans of European descent.

False.

Corporate America has signed on to the idea that minorities and third world immigrants should get special, privileged status. Some examples are Exxon, Texaco, Merrill Lynch, Boeing, Paine Weber, Starbucks and many more.

Huh?

DID YOU KNOW?: That Mexico regularly intercedes on the side of the defense in criminal cases involving Mexican nationals? Did you know that Mexico has NEVER extradited a Mexican national accused of murder in the U.S. in spite of agreements to do so? According to the L.A. Times, Orange County , California is home to 275 gangs with 17,000 members; 98% of which are Mexican and Asian. How's your county doing?

So the US can intercede on behalf of its nationals tried in other countries, too. All countries that don't have the death penalty refuse to extradite, even Americans, to the US. As to gangs, what official gang membership census tells them these figures? LOL, imagine them interviewing gang members: we're just here to do a study of the immigration status of gang members.

According to a New York Times article dated May 19, 1994, 20 years after the great influx of legal immigrants from Southeast Asia , 30% are still on welfare compared to 8% of households nationwide. A Wall Street Journal editorial dated December 5, 1994 quotes law enforcement officials as stating that Asian mobsters are the "greatest criminal challenge the country faces." Not bad for a group that is still under 5% of the population.

Immigrants have to prove they will not be likely to become a public charge before being admitted. They are less likely to be on welfare than citizens - the stats would be with the welfare office. These stats come from the freeper mind. The Asian mobster comment may be that law enforcement officer's opinion, but it is unsupported by anything else.


Is education important to you? Here are the words of a teacher who spent over 20 years in the Los Angeles School system. "Imagine teachers in classes containing 30-40 students of widely varying attention spans and motivation, many of whom aren't fluent in English. Educators seek learning materials likely to reach the majority of students and that means fewer words and math problems and more pictures and multicultural references."

The words of one teacher? Hilarious. What does that prove?

WHEN I WAS YOUNG: I remember hearing about the immigrants that came through Ellis Island . They wanted to learn English. They wanted to breathe free. They wanted to become Americans. Now, far too many immigrants come here with demands. They demand to be taught in their own language They demand special privileges--affirmative action. They demand ethnic studies that glorify their culture.

Overgenalization as the vast majority of immigrants learn English?

[CrispyQ]

15. Make sure to click "Reply to All" when you send him the Snopes link.

Also point out that directing their anger to a group of people who are mostly poor, many displaced by N/CAFTA, is hateful & mean spirited. Where is the outrage toward the American business owners & rich people who hire illegals? They are a big part of the problem too, but types like your brother (& my mother!) are happy to overlook that.

[BOSSHOG]

16. Does he like to eat salads?

Will he pick the produce when all the immigrants are gone? Will he clean up his own motel room when all the immigrants are gone? I marvel at the intense thought of those who are so fucking patriotic and so fucking god fearing conservatives.

What do you mean there is no more lettuce? It all rotted in the field? How did that happen? Who's responsible?

[truedelphi]

17. Statistic four could actually be true

I know that a respected journalist working at the San Francisco Chronicle was saying twenty years ago that HALF the births in California were hispanic and a great many of those were to parents who were not here legally and on welfare

THe numbers of hispanic briths have expanded over time.

You can not be denied welfare in California because you are illegally here. Prop 187 asked voters to keep welfare for naturalized citizens and born in AMerica citizens - it succeeded at the polls but was overthrown by a judge

[aggiesal]

19. The California Vital Records Department ...

of the Department of Health Services classified as "Hispanic" the race/ethnicity of 62.7% of all births occurring in Los Angeles county in 2001. The statistic quoted therefore erroneously characterizes all parents of Hispanic heritage in Los Angeles County in 2001 as being "illegal alien Mexicans on Medi-Cal."

[truedelphi]

20. The thing is - that hispanics

who came here before 1990, and especially those who came here circa 1970
to 1985 (and before) wanted to assimilate.
By now,those hispanics are mainstreamed, and are planning their families in the same manner that most middle class families do.

So those hispanics make up just a fraction of the number (62.5 per cent of all births) of the recorded hispanic births.

Here is what David Brower's takeon immigration was:
David Brower first became concerned about population growth decades ago, in part under the "coaching" of his friend and Berkeley neighbor, scientist Daniel Luten.241 In 1997, Brower was one of the original signatories of the Sierra Club ballot measure in favor of reducing immigration to stop U.S. population growth.

He later withdrew his name, because as a member of the Sierra Club board of directors at the time, it conflicted with the board’s official position... he spoke out against the board’s position. "The leadership are fooling themselves. Overpopulation is a very serious problem, and overimmigration is a big part of it. We must address both. We can’t ignore either," he told Outside magazine.

In a dramatic gesture reflecting the depth of his disenchantment from the board of the organization to which he had dedicated so much of his life, David Brower resigned from the Sierra Club board of directors in May, 2000. "The world is burning and all I hear from them is the music of violins," he said. Brower added, "Overpopulation is perhaps the biggest problem facing us and immigration is part of that problem. It has to be addressed."

[aggiesal]

34. There are those hispanics who have made CA. their home ...

all their lives. They were born and raised here.
Also, there are families that have been living here since before
CA. became a state, and actually help define California in it's early years.

I moved here in 1984 from Indiana. My dad was born in Colorado, my mom in Mexico.
I have a hispanic name, and in fact look very hispanic, because I am hispanic.
My wife is not. And when my child was born, fell under the hispanic category.
I don't believe your statement that we hispanics make up just a fraction of the
number 62.5% of all births.

I don't believe that 50% of the hispanics born in LA County are illegal immigrants.
I would personally put that number around 25%, although I don't have documentation
that would support either claim.

[truedelphi]

21. The San Francisco reporter's name was Harold Gilliam

He is now considered an expert onimmigration.

He wrote a much publicized treatise "Elbow to Elbow" in 1997

[aggiesal]

18. This is all urban legend ...

as the snopes link listed in a previous post shows.
Here is the link again: http://www.snopes.com/politics/immigration/taxes.asp

Also, it is very hard to convince people like your brother otherwise, but
in the state of California, the State Constitution was written in both
Spanish and English.

Why? Because at the time the state constitution was written, both languages
were the official language of California.

Also, I heard that illegal immigrants in the US use up about $100M in services.
Then I hear that a study shows that only $3M are used, but that they supply
millions more to the economy, just in sales taxes.
(I don't have the sources for these stats, and they could very well just be rumors,
but it is worth looking into.)

[maveric]

22. And "legal" , white business types are offering them jobs

They dont just come here to collect welfare. Its not that easy anymore.
If unscupulous employers keep hiring them, then they will keep on coming.

[truedelphi]

29. They come here for both - work and welfare

I have worked side by side with hispanics for twelve years

People who are illegally here are the only people in the USA
who can both work at full time positions and collect welfare benefits.

The illegally here mostly live in communities where the opportunity to obtain false I.d.'s is easy - $ 70 a pop.

They work under one identity - collect benefits under another.

yeah you or I could do that too - but if we got caught - where would we go? Back to Europe or The Congo?

Nope we would stand and face charges which can include up to sixteen years in prison.

They live in a more fluid reality than that - while under investigation - they would just go back to Mexico City.

[FredScuttle]

32. I wouldn't say they're the ONLY ones who can work and collect "welfare"

Duke Cunningham was running a nice little operation, for one example.

[LittleClarkie]

24. I never understand how they can know exactly how many there are

when they're undocumented. Where are they pulling that number out of?

[Greyhound]

25. This is one of the nastier ones, because in addition to the blatant

lies, deliberate omissions, and misinterpretations, there are a few facts mixed in.

[ComerPerro]

26. Well, so basically every word of the email is a lie. And about Eilis Island immigrants

they were not eager to learn English or adopt our culture.

In fact, many of them segreated and lived in ethnic areas surrounded exclusively by others from the same background. Whether or not this was forced upon them or was done willingly is debatable, but it doesn't change the fact that this is how many of them live.

Additionally, many of these same families, even today, as they are third and forth generation citizens, still in some cases proudly speak their native languages and fly flags of their countries of origin.

So lets not pretend there is anything really different going on here.

[Cleita]

30. Tell your brother to move up to Montana if he hates Latinos that

much. He won't see any brown people there except on the reservation. I've given up with people like him. They need to have their own area of the country I believe so the rest of us can get on with our lives. Incidentally, every place I have gone to that is predominantly white have poor economies. Jobs don't pay well and safety on the job is laughable, but go there and enjoy.

[LanternWaste]

33. I'm going on the assumption that your freeper brother

I'm going on the assumption that your freeper brother is a Christian who holds God's law higher than man's. If he's not, then I got nothing.

"Did you know that God won't hold it against you for being an illegal alien on judgement day?"

I use variations of this on my family members all the time and the usual response is, "Well... whatever!"

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

35. Nothing new. The same crap about every immigrant group.

And, this catchy little tune about the Irish immigrants: ca 1894

Come ye sons of Uncle Sam,
Come join the gallant band,
Come unite with us to fight our country's foe.
Four our God is with the right,
We will conquer by His might,
And the slick and wily Jesuit must go.

Noble men are in our ranks --
We are not a band of cranks --
We are not a lot of bigots or of fools.
But, ye Roman Catholic hordes,
We will buckle on our swords,
If you dare to meddle with our public schools.

Dare to be an A.P.A.,
Dare to stand alone.
Dare to work for Freedom's cause,
Dare to make it known.

[Cleita]

38. Great post. It's always the same BS too.

They are unhygenic (pee all over the place) and they take welfare from hard working people who speak English. They take jobs that belong to the guy whose parents arrived in America the previous generation.

[B Calm]

39. Ask your Freeper brother what he thinks of the republican guest worker plan