The Women Of The "Stay At Home Daughters Movement"

[HuckleB]

http://jezebel.com/5708306/the-women-of-the-stay-at-home-daughters-movement

"Sure, everyone's heard of stay-at-home moms. But in the past decade, the Christian Patriarchy Movement has produced another offshoot: stay-at-home daughters.

The faces of this movement — which encourages young women to stay at home, forsake education and devote themselves to their fathers (until they're given to husbands, of course)— are two sisters, Anna Sofia and Elizabeth Botkin, authors of the Visionary Daughters blog, the book So Much More: The Remarkable Influence of Visionary Daughters on the Kingdom of God and the resulting documentary, Return of the Daughters. They're far from alone: there are networks of blogs by SAHD's and their married counterparts, extolling the beauty of surrendering independence and the folly of conventional expectations fostered by "radical feminists." And, naturally, there are patriarchs at the fore. An in-depth profile in Bitch quotes Doug Phillips, the San Antonio minister who's the founder of Christian Patriarchy org Vision Forum:

Daughters aren't to be independent. They're not to act outside the scope 
of their father. As long as they're under the authority of their fathers, fathers have the ability to nullify or not the oaths and the vows. Daughters can't just go out 
independently and say, ‘I'm going to marry whoever I want.' No. The father has 
the ability to say, ‘No, I'm sorry, that has to be approved by me.'

How do these girls fill their time? Well, learning domestic skills — many of them archaic — and caring for families. Because, since the movement's closely aligned to the Duggar-approved Quiverfull movement (Michelle Duggar recently won Vision Forum's "Mother of the Year" award) , there tend to be a lot of kids around. And while the pitfalls of a movement that encourages women to surrender all control and forsake education seem so obvious as to not need enumerating, there are special risks associated with this lifestyle: you may recall in the Quiverfull episode of Secret Lives of Women that one young woman talks about the incredible stress associated with devoting her life to her siblings — pressures that in her case led to severe depression and self-harm. One website, Quivering Daughters, provides a supportive community for young women in just this situation — what they refer to as "emotional and spiritual abuse within authoritarian families."

..."

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Read more: http://jezebel.com/5708306/the-women-of-the-stay-at-home-daughters-movement#ixzz17Xcul2O4


You can find a couple of videos at the link. Am I being judgmental if I say this makes my skin crawl?

Ugh.

:(

[hlthe2b]

1. Taking away their chance at a future--- child abuse, IMO

[HuckleB]

5. That's my take on it, too. -eom-

[Rebubula]

34. We need to charge..

...much of the Islamic world with child abuse as well.

Religion needs to go away. Maybe in a few generations...

[Speck Tater]

2. OMFG! Another aspect of the American Taliban. Next comes wearing black bags over their whole body.nt

[Still Blue in PDX]

10. No black bags, but puffy pulled-back hair and long denim skirts. nt

[Kali]

3. so different from those crazy muslins, eh?

there are people in this country who don't believe this happens and they actually fool themselves into thinking these extremists wouldn't get even worse if/when they get even more entrenched in the govt/social institutions of the US

[HuckleB]

4. Alas, you are likely correct. -eom-

[Zoeisright]

6. You know, men in movements like this are scared to death of women.

Those men are also very weak. They can't get along in the real world, so they create their own little authoritarian paradises - like the Stepford Wives.

[phantom power]

7. This may be tangential, but I have a theory that home-schooling enables this shit.

Any girl expose to the Real World in public school would be a lot less likely to succumb to this kind of patriarchal bullshit.

[Still Blue in PDX]

9. I agree. nt

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bettie]

23. I suspect they are speaking more of the ultra-relgious

homeschoolers in this case.

The vast majority of home schoolers do it for relgious reasons, at least here in the Midwest.

My SIL does it so her children never have to face anyone who is not of their relgion. (She's told me as much in explaining why her children cannot be around my boys who are parented by us...liberal, evil, humanists.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

28. i take offense at ANOTHER poster here who attacks homeschool proponents

in general...there are LOADS of wonderful parents homeschooling their children who do a much better job not only of knowledge transfer but also of socialization. my kids know vastly more than their aged counterparts in public (and private) school. they reason better than most kids their age. and they can play like mad with their myriad friends or deal well in social situation with adults.

most of the other homeschooling families we know ARE the religious sort but are not by any means 'hiding' their children away from the Real World. i happen to think my kids and most of the other in our homeschool enrichment groups get more of the Real World than kids in public school any day.

sP

[Bettie]

29. I don't homeschool, but I understand that there are as many

reasons to do so as there are to public school.

I like public school for my kids, they seem to learn better and more attentively from someone other than me and I know I haven't the discipline to keep to a proper schedule. (And I just don't want to! :)

If your kids and you are happy with your system, then it makes no difference to me.

I do, however, take issue with people who home school like my SIL does, to remove their kids from society. Sadly, I know several of these types among my more religious acquaintances.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

31. you and i are in complete agreement

it should be BETTER than the other options... not a reason to hide your kids. my wife and i are also keenly aware that at some point our kids will surpass our ability to teach them (i have a five year old that can tell you the first ten cubes and she understands WHY they are cubes). at that point, we will have to come up with a new solution...an excellent solution.

sP

[mzteris]

59. sounds like your child will soon

"teach him/herself. You will be relegated to 'facilitator' ". This is optimal for bright kids.

In your community you will (probably) find many ways of supporting their learning - tutors, coops, classes, etc. (If you're new to hs'ing and want to know more about these things - come over to the hs'ing forum here on DU - albeit it's pretty quiet these days - or PM me and I'll be happy to talk to you about options.)

[Maat]

33. Maat here in support of homeschooling, ProdigalJunkMail.

I understand that it shouldn't be used as an excuse to isolate kids.

My kid just has a whole lot of social/educational groups in which to participate.

We happen to go through a charter school, follow the typical curriculum, and meet with a public school teacher once per month.

I allow my kid to take the annual tests (they don't hold the results against the kid, and it helps her school, and it gets my kid used to the process).

Don't feel that you have to switch when the kids get older. My kid is in 8th grade, and there are a whole lot of tools available to me - even in terms of the advanced subjects.

My kid isn't blindly obedient, so no one here to fear.

[mzteris]

60. doncha just wish that SOMETIMES they'd be "blindly obedient"???

hell, I'd be happy with "squintedly obedient"!

:rofl:

[Maat]

65. I agree!

:rofl:

She's a keen negotiator - and I make deals!

There are so many great tools out there now, and DVDs on every subject imaginable that one can rent from Netflix. Also, there's every parent's savior - www.brainpop.com - best $10 per month I've ever spent. A beautiful video explaining every subject imaginable just perfectly!

[Kalyke]

26. I don't think the poster meant that.

What he/she meant is that these freaks use the perfectly legal option of homeschooling to deny their daughters a good education, exposure to the real world and opportunity.

The poster is not questioning those who homeschool following an educationally-approved method of instruction.

[Gormy Cuss]

36. In two NCES studies a third of parents cited religious reasons as the primary motivation.

In the 2003 study over 72 percent cited it as one of the factors in the homeschooling decision. It's not unreasonable to wonder whether that the parents referenced in the OP would be among that group.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

37. so lumping the other 2/3 that do not cite religion as the primary reason

seems ok to you? hmmmm. ok. the poster simply homeschooling enables this shit. not religious homeschooling families, mind you...just homeschooling families enable this shit. that is what i take offense at. you want to blame religious mindsets on this...more power to ya...hell, i would readily agree. homeschooling doesn't enable this shit...religion (and the abuse thereof) enables this shit.

sP

[Gormy Cuss]

38. The post said that homeschooling enabled this, not that all homeschoolers are religiously motivated.

Are you saying that the option to homeschool doesn't make it easier to isolate their children?

[ProdigalJunkMail]

44. no...homeschooling doesn't enable this...

religious whackjob thinking enables this sort of thing. this is an attack on homeschooling. if homeschooling enables isolating your family then homeschooling is BAD...that is what the poster is implying. homeschooling your children is NOT the problem...hence homeschooling is NOT the enabling factor here.

homeschooling doesn't isolate your children...if you do it properly it makes it harder to isolate your children.

sP

[Gormy Cuss]

51. If homeschooling weren't an option for those whackjobs their children would be in a school.

Maybe you have a history with the upthread poster that suggests that it's a slam against all homeschooling but on its face it is not. Fact of the matter is there are a substantial number of parents homeschooling for religious reasons. Suggesting that some of those are religious whackjobs is somehow casting aspersions on all homeschoolers?

You stated homeschooling doesn't isolate the children if you do it properly. The point here is that homeschooling can isolate children when NOT done properly -- say for example by parents who are religious extremists.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

52. right...this is an attack on homeschooling in general

"if homeschooling weren't an option" is exactly what the poster meant...glad you picked up on...

too bad you still don't see that the poster who started all this didn't mention religion at all...

sP

[Gormy Cuss]

54. Again, on its face that post was not a general attack on homeschooling.

To read into that post a general attack on homeschooling is a stretch unless as I stated previously one can point to a pattern of that poster condemning homeschooling.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

56. i disagree with your logic. unless you have a history with the poster

you have no reason to ASSUME they are talking about religious homeschoolers...the post mentions nothing of religion; the post simply says that homeschooling enables this sort of thing.

you are the one making the leap here...not me.

either way, i wish you a pleasant afternoon...i am off to Target to stimulate the economy a little.

sP

[mzteris]

62. NOPE. They'd have a "church school". n/t

[Gormy Cuss]

67. Yes, a school. n/t

[mzteris]

68. a "church school" doing the exact same thing they're doing now.

Taking away the right to homeschool will do nothing to alleviate the problem of lunatic fundies, but would hurt many children whose only hope a good education is hs'ing.

[mzteris]

61. Actually -

If you look closely, there are MULTIPLE reasons that people choose to homeschool. Hell, even the liberal ones I knew would sometimes "cite" religion as "one" of the many reasons - but it was by far way down the list.

Also in some states - like NC - you have to CHOOSE whether you are a "religious homeschool" or not. Some people believe that their "rights" are better protected if they choose to hs under the "religion" designation. And there are a number of "co-ops" in NC that are religious in nature - but still have some darn good learning opportunities - so some people claim to be "religious" so they can join the group.

And if ONE-third cite religion - what about the other TWO-thirds?!?

IF these people didn't have "hs'ing" as an option, they would start schools at their church - so nothing at all would change for these girls.

No - I have a better idea - let's make RELIGION ILLEGAL entirely!! Every damn religion on the planet except Paganism and Goddess worship are patriarchal monstrosities.

[REP]

45. The guilty flee where no man persuith

I believe the poster was referring only to those who are affiliated with groups such as those in the article referenced. Do you see yourself in that article?

[ProdigalJunkMail]

48. the poster said that homeschooling is the enabling factor

when it is not. that is the problem i have with the post. you wanna blame religious nuts who homeschool? then blame them. but even in that situation, homeschooling is NOT the enabling factor...the religious nuttiness is.

sP

[Bettie]

17. My SIL is into this and does home schooling to help with it

She has two daughters, aged 12 and 10.

The only textbook they use is the Bible.

I asked what about science and math....history, etc. She informed me that her daughters will not need any of that because when they are "of age" she and my brother will choose an appropriate husband for each of them, someone to care for and "guide" them.

She then went on to explain that young women need an older man to care for them and teach them. It is wrong, she informed me, to expect two teenagers or 20-somethings to make a good life for themselves. The ideal, godly marriage is between a young woman (about age 16, when I asked her what she thought was the right age) and a man of at least 30 who was "established" in his life and the church.

I was shocked.

Strangely, she doesn't speak to me anymore after I told her what I thought of her idea of selling her daughters to some older man.

[renate]

39. those poor girls

So creepy. What a horrible life lies ahead for them, if they're married off to any guy who isn't super kind and super good. And it doesn't sound like the guys in her religion have any real incentive to be good to their wives, since their wives are trapped... uneducated and unaware of what the real world is like. That is so awful. How can she love her daughters and not want them to have any options at all?

[Generic Other]

53. A waste of human life that reproduces

Better to be a member of a multi-generational welfare family from the projects. Some slight chance of escaping at least.

[Generic Other]

55. Sorry, I didn't mean to post this specifically about your situation

I meant in general.

[HuckleB]

19. It would be interesting to study the percentage of girls in this "movement" who are home-schooled.

Anecdotally, it does seem like a higher percentage of kids in fundamentalist sects are home-schooled. Further, I've been amazed at how many home-schooled kids I see who can't function with peers without extreme anxiety, thus necessitating treatment. Certainly, some kids do fine being home-schooled, but I've seen enough who don't to wonder about the reasons many parents do it.

[mzteris]

63. FYI - a number of people hs those kids with "extreme anxiety"

BECAUSE of their "extreme anxiety".

You have the cause and effect backwards in this case.

ASPIE spectrum kids are everywhere in the hs'ing movement.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

20. Yup, there was an article in the Minneapolis paper a few years ago

about a fundie family who had home-schooled their children to "protect" them from the wicked world.

The question was what would happen now that the oldest girl was 18 and had passed her G.E.D.

Now, in line with their ideology, they could have sent her to one of those fundie colleges, like Bob Jones or Liberty University or Oral Roberts. Those would be just one little step above a cloistered convent.

But no, even THAT was too much exposure to the world. They had the daughter take correspondence courses from one of the fundie colleges. :crazy:

[MineralMan]

30. There are lots of types of people who homeschool. I think you

need a qualifier in your statement. I suspect you're referring to fundamentalist Christians who homeschool for reasons other than education. If you're more specific in your characterization, you'll be less likely to offend people who homeschool for other reasons.

[Odin2005]

41. Most homeschooling parents are NOT fundy idiots.

That BS anti-homeschooling talking point is getting old.

[mzteris]

58. couple of things

1. I know plenty of whacked out fundies who believe this crap who go to traditional public schools.

2. Even if hs'ing for these children facilitates that, do NOT take away the right to homeschool - because for every fundie, there's a flaming liberal also hs'ing.

Hs'ing can be the best - and sometimes ONLY - option for many children.

These people will brainwash their kids - or send them to a "religious" school at their damn church if you take away hs'ing rights. To take away the right to hs punishes all those non-fundies.

Please do not make the mistake of lumping all hs'ers in with the demented fundie crowd.

[MedicalAdmin]

8. It seems to me that this is a form of pedophilia.

The man of the house makes sure that he has a steady in house supply of victims. It doesn't seem a co-incidence that the raise of this is moving in lock step with the increase in the visibility of slavery worldwide and the resultant increase in law enforcement.

I guess the reasoning is that if it bacame too dangerous to buy a slave then the solution is just to grow your own.

[Taverner]

11. More proof the American Taliban is pushing this nation into regression

[SpiralHawk]

12. OMG - Their 'smiles' have all the 'authenticity' of Republicon Family Pharisee Values

creeeeeeepy --

The same kind of 'smile' you see on 'adult' Republicons before they are confronted with their wholesale hypocrisy...

Republicons are really on a degenerate fascist pathway...

[HuckleB]

13. Indeed. Those smiles are incredibly creepy. -eom-

[felix_numinous]

14. American Taliban

-you are not the only one whose skin crawls. This issue has nothing to do with 'freedom of religion'.

Although I support freedom of religion and a certain autonomy of parents in the way they raise their kids, these families seem to be pushing the limits of our social system by often advocating physical punishments of women and children and denying them an education. Forcing subservience to men never goes well, often resulting in psychological, physical and sexual abuse.

I think ideally children's rights should supersede parental authority in cases of abuse and denial of education. If an adult at the age of consent chooses to live in a relationship of subservience, she can do this without relinquishing her human rights. Children have no choice and need advocacy in cases like this.

Human rights, including the rights of women and children should supersede religious rights. As long as separation of church and state is left up to the states and not handled on a national level, pockets of really backward living folks throughout our country will interpret freedom of religion as an excuse to live abusive lives. I consider this phenomena a social disease.

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[marmar]

25. How did Muslims get dragged into this?

nt

[Lydia Leftcoast]

18. This is nothing new

In many traditional European cultures, it was expected that the youngest daughter would remain unmarried and care for the parents in their old age. No thought, of course, for who would take care of the daughter in HER old age.

I had some distant relatives (of my mother's and grandmother's generations) who actually put this into practice. The youngest daughter had a job that paid her more than enough to live on, but she'd been brought up to believe that moving out would mean failing in her "duty," so she never even learned to drive. Her father drove her to work and back every day.

After both parents died, by which time the daughter was in her seventies, she had nothing but an empty house and no life outside the family. She began to develop dementia, and a couple of years later, the mailman noticed the mail piling up. The cops went into the house and found her curled up in a corner and babbling. She didn't live very long after that.

Yeah, so that "stay-at-home daughter" stuff really worked out for her, didn't it?

[marmar]

21. Yikes. Just yikes.

nt

[Kalyke]

22. Denying a child an education is child abuse.

The Dept. of Human Services in the state where these people reside need to find these families, remove the daughters and charge the parents with child neglect/abuse.

[HuckleB]

27. +1

[musette_sf]

32. Ah, the Botkin girls, or, I should say,

their Vision Forum patriarchal authority ghostwriters.

I found the below comments on the book "So Much More" on the blog of a self-professed devout fundamentalist Christian woman, who does not argue the "male headship" dogma of that particular cult. She shares my horror at what the dominionist Vision Forum cult demands of its young women:

I’m the mother of three precious daughters and a wonderful son, whom I homeschool. I’m a Christian who bases my decisions on the Word of God and who, with my husband, strives to raise our children in godliness. I believe that my husband is to be the head of my home, that I am to graciously and voluntarily submit to him, and that I have a high calling as a wife, mother, and homemaker. I desire for my children to obey their parents, to serve God, and for my daughters especially to understand the glorious role for which God has created them. It would delight me for my daughters to live at home, safe from a ravaging world, until they marry. I believe that is often a wise course of action.

...but I have other concerns that have to do with the specific teachings of the book itself.

One is that the Botkins espouse a view of honor that goes beyond what scripture states. Christians are called to serve one another and children should honor parents. However, the Botkin girls give suggestions never found in scripture. They suggest by examples given that an unmarried girl or woman could serve her father by untying his shoes, fetching his slippers, and asking him about his preference as to the colors she wears (all examples given in the book). I tread a fine line here, for Christ Himself gave us the example of washing the disciples’ feet. My concern is not so much with the actions themselves as the attitude behind them that goes beyond mere service to an honor that approaches worship. (The father is referred to more than once as “my knight in shining armor.”) In So Much More we learn that a daughter is to find out what her father believes about everything (not just salvational issues) so that she can adopt all of his beliefs and opinions as her own (p.35). One of the “heroines” in the book says that she once asked her father questions like, “What if I don’t hold the same convictions you hold in this area?” She goes on to call such questions “selfish” (p. 37). Another young adult “heroine” tells the story of how her father caused her to be 45 minutes late for a lunch appointment. She condemns her irritation, stating that it indicated that she was focused on her own desires and schedule rather than being fully submitted to her father’s. (p. 195)

So Much More clearly states that a father has the authority to discipline an unmarried daughter of any age (p.199, 303). They specifically advocate spanking for younger daughters, but are silent as to how a father should discipline an adult daughter. Should he spank her? Remove privileges? Allow God to deal with her? (My guess would be no, since the father is supposed to represent God to the daughter in a way that almost seems to approach mediation.) They don’t say. Among Patriarchal families there is a small but growing subset that teaches “Christian Domestic Discipline”—a husband exercising corporal punishment upon a disobedient wife. With such extreme and abusive teachings swirling around the Patriarchal camp, it seems extremely unwise for the Botkins to be so ambiguous about the issue of adult daughters and discipline. And we haven’t even gotten to the real question, which is whether a father, in fact, should be able to discipline a daughter into her late teens and adulthood. The Botkin view about discipline is extreme, dangerous, and at the very least should require careful clarification.

The belief that a father should discipline an unmarried daughter, regardless of how old she is, leaves the door wide open for humiliation and abuse. Before you write this statement off as radical and extreme, let me assure you that I’m personally aware of families where this has happened. Before I even finished this review, I received correspondence from those who have seen this happen in their family as a result of the Botkins’ teaching. Aside from the fact that this level of servitude, submission, and authority goes beyond scripture, it is also a predator’s dream come true. I would love to believe that all Christian fathers are good and godly men, as my husband and father are, but the sad fact is that all are not. As a pastor’s wife who has heard the stories of many families who come to my husband and me for counsel, I’m all too aware of the perversion and abuse that goes on in some homes that appear squeaky-clean on the outside.

The Botkins mention that a girl should not stay in the home with a father who is involved in abusive criminal activity, but they touch on this so briefly and incompletely, while emphasizing again and again the responsibility of the daughter to submit to her father in all things, that an impressionable young woman could easily feel that to resist the approaches of a father-abuser would be rebellion against God. Again, I am personally aware of situations (yes, plural) where daughters have remained in abusive homes (physically and/or sexually) because they have been saturated from birth with the teaching that they must submit unquestioningly to their authorities. This isn’t theoretical, it really happens. In a culture where rebellion is the norm, I believe we need a call for children to honor their parents. But I believe that teachers like the Botkins have taken that call to an extreme that can be harmful to vulnerable young women.

[mzteris]

64. these men spank their wives if they're disobedient -

of course they'll spank their daughters.

They get off on it.

:puke:

I'm of the opinion that all religion is evil. Even those who practice a more benign version of it is enabling the whack jobs.

Believing in "sky people" is a delusion.

[Maru Kitteh]

35. This is pretty much exactly how my step-daughter's fundie mom tried to raise her

So of course, she went completely wild. We're hoping the pendulum will eventually right itself.

[ileus]

40. all 2 of them...

Really.....how many people believe this to be a mainstream Christian movement?

[Odin2005]

42. This is child abuse protected by the evil that is Religion. Disgusting.

[Solly Mack]

43. Ick

[katty]

46. sounds like big love

[McCamy Taylor]

47. Sounds like a case for CPS to me.

[ibegurpard]

49. so fucking disgusting i have no words...

[comtec]

50. *JAW DROPS!*

it's Twenty-fucking-ten!
i..
The troglodytes never cease to amazing me.... seriously!

How are they even allowed ot keep their children out of school?
I was under the (misguided) impression that ALL children were required by the FEDERAL government to have an education!

I know home schooling can pull some serious bullshit about education (looking at the FUNDY home schoolers, thank you) but... to outright NOT educate their daughters?!

Really? Seriously!

[niyad]

57. "the handmaid's tale" is alive and well in the US.

[niyad]

66. the woman-hating of the fundie nutbars is almost beyond imagining--except we see it every single day